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Nevadaref Tue May 19, 2009 11:42pm

2009-10 POEs explained
 
http://www.nfhs.org/core/contentmana...f_Emphasis.pdf

Plus some further comments on the two rule changes:
Individual state associations will determine if the equipment will be used, at what tournament round(s) and by whom.

During their pregame responsibilities, game officials should determine if red/LED lights are present in order to adjudicate end-of-period situations properly.

And they even managed to mention rough play in two different POEs!

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 04:09am

I'll start the comments with this.
Point #1 contains:
"TRAVELING
...
Guidelines for Teaching and Officiating
...
D. A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball."

I have to disagree. A player who collects the ball while airborne, having both feet off the floor, can establish possession in the air and then land on one foot followed by the other. This is frequently seen with players driving to the basket. The player who is dribbling will jump into the air, end the dribble by grabbing the ball with both hands, and then take two steps by landing right, left or left, right and jump off that final foot to try for goal.

The NFHS really messed up by publishing such a definitive and incorrect statement. :(

Here is the text of the relevant NFHS rule:
4-44-2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. ...

It says right there that a player with the ball may take two steps! :eek:

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 04:22am

Point #2 on closely-guarded is basically a reprint from 2004-05 with the addition of a section on using the markings on the court to help officials measure the required six-foot distance.

It seems that someone at the NFHS read a thread of ours from this past season and decided to steal information from a post that I made. Of course, no credit was given! :eek: I guess that I should be flattered instead of :mad: .

"Good visual examples of this distance can be found on the court as: the distance between the free-throw line and the top of the semi-circle; from the division line to the jump circle; two adjacent marked lane spaces."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 574682)
Yes, the closely-guarded rule was clarified last year to read forward foot to forward foot in the definition (4-10).

I have been given some tips on how to use the markings on the floor to help judge that six-foot distance during play.

1. The FT line to the the top of the FT semi-circle is six feet.
2. The division line to the top of the center restraining circle is six feet.
3. The width of the FT lane is twelve feet. So from the middle of the lane to either side is six feet.
4. Any two adjoining marked lane spaces encompass six feet of space.
5. If you are standing on the 28' has mark which forms the end of the coaching box nearest the table and looking straight across the court, it is exactly three feet to the three point line at the apex of the FT semi-circle.

If you have two players near those areas, the court markings can really help you judge six feet. If you familiarize yourself with those markings and get a good feel for those distances, you can more readily translate it to other areas of the floor.

Anyway, it was helpful to me.


Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 04:36am

Point #3
This explanation of part of the three second rule is NOT how most of us here have previously understood it.
The prevailing opinion was not that the count stopped and then resumed, but rather that the player was simply not penalized for going over the allotted time during the course of making a move to the basket. If that move was stopped and a try did not take place, then he would be penalized. There was no need to resume or continue the count if a total of three seconds had already elapsed.
Whoever wrote this has a different view.

B. Exception. Allowance is made and the count is momentarily stopped when a restricted player has the ball and dribbles or makes a move to try for goal. However, the previous count is resumed if the player does not continue and try for goal. Some may feel that exception complicates the rule, but it is necessary in order to balance the offense and defense. The most obvious misinterpretation of this rule is when the restricted player has a two-second count when he or she begins the move to try for goal, but is stopped or the ball is batted loose. The player involved, while in the lane, attempts to regain possession and instead of continuing the count, the official erroneously stops it entirely. If the player starts a move to the basket and the ball is jarred loose, the previous count is resumed and results in a violation if it reaches three seconds. The purpose of the rule is circumvented if a violation is not called when this occurs.

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 05:02am

Point #4 on Block/Charge is well-written.

I only have a small problem with the phrasing of one comment, because this directive can so easily be taken out of the specific context for which it was intended.

"3) If a player with the ball gets his/her shoulders past the front of the torso of the defender and contact occurs, the defender has blocked and a foul must be called."

We all know that isn't the case if defender is stationary and the offensive player initiates the contact.

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 05:06am

Point #5 on FT administration makes it clear that the NFHS really did add a new requirement for the players in marked lane spaces and tried to pass it off as an editorial change, as we have previously stated on here.

"No player shall enter, leave or touch the court outside the marked lane space (3 feet by 3 feet)."

:D

dsqrddgd909 Wed May 20, 2009 06:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603364)

The NFHS really messed up by publishing such a definitive and incorrect statement. :(

.....
It says right there that a player with the ball may take two steps! :eek:

As a new ref, I was already worried about getting this rule right. :confused:

bob jenkins Wed May 20, 2009 07:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603364)
A player who collects the ball while airborne, having both feet off the floor, can establish possession in the air and then land on one foot followed by the other.

IMO, that's a "landing" followed by one "step" -- not two steps.

A step is a raising of the foot off the floor followed by putting the foot back on the floor.

Raymond Wed May 20, 2009 08:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFHS BASKETBALL 2009-10 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
5) A player is never permitted to move into the path of an opponent after the opponent has jumped into the air.

Does this settle an argument we had here a while back?

just another ref Wed May 20, 2009 08:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603364)
...
D. A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball."

I have to disagree. A player who collects the ball while airborne, having both feet off the floor, can establish possession in the air and then land on one foot followed by the other. This is frequently seen with players driving to the basket. The player who is dribbling will jump into the air, end the dribble by grabbing the ball with both hands, and then take two steps by landing right, left or left, right and jump off that final foot to try for goal.

The NFHS really messed up by publishing such a definitive and incorrect statement. :(

In the first place, I heartily agree with Bob. I think what you describe above is a landing followed by one step, as opposed to two steps. In the second place, I think it is a rare thing when the above actually happens, but it is very difficult to pinpoint when the dribble ends so the player is often given the benefit of the doubt. Finally, and most importantly, I think the potential benefit of the above statement in red is tremendous, if those without knowledge of the actual rule would read it, which is unlikely. While one may argue that the statement:
"He gets/doesn't get two steps" is oversimplified, I think we all would agree that the masses, including many officials, think that the ball handler should be allowed the two (or more) steps, far too often.

M&M Guy Wed May 20, 2009 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 603383)
IMO, that's a "landing" followed by one "step" -- not two steps.

A step is a raising of the foot off the floor followed by putting the foot back on the floor.

And isn't that what the player did - lifted both feet off the floor, caught the ball, put the first foot back on the floor (step 1), and put the second foot back on the floor (step 2)? Or, were there actually 2 "landings", and no "steps", since both feet were off the floor at the time of the ball being caught?

While I understand your point, it will be a difficult distinction to explain to a coach who quotes the guideline during the game. I wish they would not have used that specific wording, and stuck with the definitions.

bbcof83 Wed May 20, 2009 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603367)
Point #4 on Block/Charge...

"B. Guarding a player with the Ball.
4) When an offensive player receives a long pass with his/her back turned and places one foot on the floor and crashes into a legally set defender, it is a player-control foul. It seems many officials are calling this a traveling violation, which is incorrect"

I have two questions about this:
1) Is the "places one foot on the floor" part important? If the offensive player crashes into the legal defender while in the air is this a block because the defender didn't allow space? I assume not since above it says "Guarding a player with the ball... time and space are of no consequence". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
2) I am having trouble understanding why they decided to mention that many officials seem to be calling this traveling. Depending on the situation this could be called a multitude of different ways. I wish they would have expanded on why it specifically isn't a traveling violation. By wording it this way I have more questions than answers.

Ch1town Wed May 20, 2009 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
I have two questions about this:
1) Is the "places one foot on the floor" part important?

Absolutely, because placing one foot on the floor & crashing into the defender is not a travel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
If the offensive player crashes into the legal defender while in the air is this a block because the defender didn't allow space? I assume not since above it says "Guarding a player with the ball... time and space are of no consequence". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

It all depends... did the offensive or defensive player violate verticality?
I think it should be a block as the defender has to allow the player to land after catching the ball in the air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
2) I am having trouble understanding why they decided to mention that many officials seem to be calling this traveling. Depending on the situation this could be called a multitude of different ways. I wish they would have expanded on why it specifically isn't a traveling violation. By wording it this way I have more questions than answers.

As you previously stated, in this partaicular sitch "one foot on the floor" prior to crashing into the defender is the key. Sometimes they land, turn & see the defender, get nervous & actually travel. I guess some officials were going with the travel as opposed to the PC no matter what happened prior to contact.

M&M Guy Wed May 20, 2009 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
"B. Guarding a player with the Ball.
4) When an offensive player receives a long pass with his/her back turned and places one foot on the floor and crashes into a legally set defender, it is a player-control foul. It seems many officials are calling this a traveling violation, which is incorrect"

I have two questions about this:
1) Is the "places one foot on the floor" part important? If the offensive player crashes into the legal defender while in the air is this a block because the defender didn't allow space? I assume not since above it says "Guarding a player with the ball... time and space are of no consequence". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
2) I am having trouble understanding why they decided to mention that many officials seem to be calling this traveling. Depending on the situation this could be called a multitude of different ways. I wish they would have expanded on why it specifically isn't a traveling violation. By wording it this way I have more questions than answers.

1) Yes, the part about placing the foot on the floor is important for the very reason you mentioned. Once A1 has the ball and has returned to the floor, it is their responsiblility to avoid contact with a defender that has legal guarding position. However, if A1 was still in the air, the defender must either have gotten to the spot before A1 was in the air, or allow A1 time and distance to stop and/or change direction.
2) Many offiicials use the travel as a "bailout" call in this situation. You are correct that there could be a number of different calls, based upon the specific situation. Sometimes A1 will end up shuffling their feet when they finally see the defender right before contact, so a travel could be the correct call. But for the most part the official has to make block/charge decision. Was the defender guarding a player with or without the ball when A1 went airborne? Did they establish LGP, and if so, was it before or after A1 left the floor? Had A1 returned to the floor before contact? Was time/distance a factor, or not? (Oh...never mind...if I call a travel one team's happy with the turnover, while the other team's happy they didn't get a foul charged to them.) That's what the committee is addressing - see the play and make the proper call, rather than trying to take the easy way out with the "bailout" call.

bbcof83 Wed May 20, 2009 10:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 603436)
Absolutely, because placing one foot on the floor & crashing into the defender is not a travel.

Seems silly to me that they are emphasizing the "one foot on the ground" for this sole purpose but perhaps you're right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 603436)
It all depends... did the offensive or defensive player violate verticality?
I think it should be a block as the defender has to allow the player to land after catching the ball in the air.

I disagree. If the defender has the spot before the offensive player jumps to receive the pass then the onus is on the offense to avoid contact whether he/she lands before contact or not. This is why I was asking if the "one foot on the floor" part was the operative here.

Ch1town Wed May 20, 2009 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603440)
I disagree. If the defender has the spot before the offensive player jumps to receive the pass then the onus is on the offense to avoid contact whether he/she lands before contact or not.

In that particular sitch you are absolutely right :)

bbcof83 Wed May 20, 2009 11:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603438)
1) Yes, the part about placing the foot on the floor is important for the very reason you mentioned. Once A1 has the ball and has returned to the floor, it is their responsiblility to avoid contact with a defender that has legal guarding position. However, if A1 was still in the air, the defender must either have gotten to the spot before A1 was in the air, or allow A1 time and distance to stop and/or change direction.
2) Many offiicials use the travel as a "bailout" call in this situation...

Very well explained M&M. Now I see the importance of the foot on the floor. So if I understand you correctly, time and distance is a factor in the situation where contact occurs before the offense returns to the floor because the offense didn't have the ball when they jumped and it's a "guarding a player without the ball" situation until he/she establishes possession on the floor. Correct?

bbcof83 Wed May 20, 2009 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 603447)
In that particular sitch you are absolutely right :)

OK, I should have read between the lines of your post. Thanks for the help.

M&M Guy Wed May 20, 2009 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603449)
Very well explained M&M. Now I see the importance of the foot on the floor. So if I understand you correctly, time and distance is a factor in the situation where contact occurs before the offense returns to the floor because the offense didn't have the ball when they jumped and it's a "guarding a player without the ball" situation until he/she establishes possession on the floor. Correct?

That is the way I read the rule. There might be others that disagree, given the fact A1 now has the ball, their status changed at that moment, even in mid-air.

Either way, you see how all this information must be processed in that instant, and the reason some officials simply call the travel instead to avoid making that decision.

Adam Wed May 20, 2009 11:18am

I actually disagree based on the logic M&M gives. Once the player gains the ball, time and distance are not a factor.

M&M Guy Wed May 20, 2009 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 603462)
I actually disagree based on the logic M&M gives. Once the player gains the ball, time and distance are not a factor.

Once I went back and read that rulebook thingy, I would both agree and disagree with you. :p The rule actually reads the same for guarding an airborne player either with (4-23-4b) or without (4-23-5d) the ball. Either way, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor. So once the player gains the ball, time and distance aren't a factor. However, before the player gains the ball, time and distance aren't a factor either.

So, I will amend my original statement somewhat and take out the part about time and distance on the airborne player. But it still doesn't change the reason for the initial comment on having the foot back down on the ground - no time and distance is required for the guard, as opposed to the guard needing to be in the spot before A1 went airborne.

Adam Wed May 20, 2009 12:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603468)
Once I went back and read that rulebook thingy, I would both agree and disagree with you. :p The rule actually reads the same for guarding an airborne player either with (4-23-4b) or without (4-23-5d) the ball. Either way, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor. So once the player gains the ball, time and distance aren't a factor. However, before the player gains the ball, time and distance aren't a factor either.

So, I will amend my original statement somewhat and take out the part about time and distance on the airborne player. But it still doesn't change the reason for the initial comment on having the foot back down on the ground - no time and distance is required for the guard, as opposed to the guard needing to be in the spot before A1 went airborne.

pesky rules. good grief.
I was thinking of the case when the airborne player puts a foot on the floor just prior to contact.

Camron Rust Wed May 20, 2009 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603365)
Point #2 on closely-guarded is basically a reprint from 2004-05 with the addition of a section on using the markings on the court to help officials measure the required six-foot distance.

It seems that someone at the NFHS read a thread of ours from this past season and decided to steal information from a post that I made. Of course, no credit was given! :eek: I guess that I should be flattered instead of :mad: .

You think you're the only one to have ever thought of this??

Camron Rust Wed May 20, 2009 06:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603368)
Point #5 on FT administration makes it clear that the NFHS really did add a new requirement for the players in marked lane spaces and tried to pass it off as an editorial change, as we have previously stated on here.

"No player shall enter, leave or touch the court outside the marked lane space (3 feet by 3 feet)."

:D

Not really...touching outside of the space is effectively the same as leaving te space but they had to spell it out for those wound't believe it was the same.

Camron Rust Wed May 20, 2009 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603366)
Point #3
This explanation of part of the three second rule is NOT how most of us here have previously understood it.

While the wording and thinking may be differnet, it, in practice, results in excactly the same outcome.

Camron Rust Wed May 20, 2009 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603409)
And isn't that what the player did - lifted both feet off the floor, caught the ball, put the first foot back on the floor (step 1), and put the second foot back on the floor (step 2)? Or, were there actually 2 "landings", and no "steps", since both feet were off the floor at the time of the ball being caught?

Neither...having caught the ball in the air, the landing (the first foot to touch) doesn't count as a step...any subsequent contact does.

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 06:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
"B. Guarding a player with the Ball.
4) When an offensive player receives a long pass with his/her back turned and places one foot on the floor and crashes into a legally set defender, it is a player-control foul. It seems many officials are calling this a traveling violation, which is incorrect"

I have two questions about this:
1) Is the "places one foot on the floor" part important? If the offensive player crashes into the legal defender while in the air is this a block because the defender didn't allow space? I assume not since above it says "Guarding a player with the ball... time and space are of no consequence". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

It is included because the NFHS states unequivocally that this is a block.
In order to definitely state that, it is necessary to know that the offensive player with the ball to returned at least one foot to the floor prior to the contact occurring. If the contact occurs before either foot comes down, then we don't have enough information to decide whether PC or blocking is correct because we need to know whether the defender obtained a legal position on the court PRIOR to the opponent going airborne. That is what the call will depend upon in that case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcof83 (Post 603424)
2) I am having trouble understanding why they decided to mention that many officials seem to be calling this traveling. Depending on the situation this could be called a multitude of different ways. I wish they would have expanded on why it specifically isn't a traveling violation. By wording it this way I have more questions than answers.

The NFHS is against using traveling as a bail-out call in such plays as M&M has correctly articulated. I know that the PAC-10 was actually teaching to call it that way a few years ago! :eek:

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 06:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603409)
And isn't that what the player did - lifted both feet off the floor, caught the ball, put the first foot back on the floor (step 1), and put the second foot back on the floor (step 2)? Or, were there actually 2 "landings", and no "steps", since both feet were off the floor at the time of the ball being caught?

While I understand your point, it will be a difficult distinction to explain to a coach who quotes the guideline during the game. I wish they would not have used that specific wording, and stuck with the definitions.

Very well said. :)

The NFHS does not provide a definition for a step, but the rules book does mention "the other foot touches in a step." I think that we are going to be arguing with coaches who interp it to be whatever supports their cause.

I can state that what I described above is always considered a step by those on TV reviewing a replay and counting feet hitting the floor. That doesn't mean that they are correct, but if that is the prevailing opinion of the masses, then the NFHS just made our job much more difficult and opened us up to taking unnecessary grief.

Nevadaref Wed May 20, 2009 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603364)
I'll start the comments with this.
Point #1 contains:
"TRAVELING
...
Guidelines for Teaching and Officiating
...
D. A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball."

http://classroomclipart.com/images/g.../lightbulb.gif
Bright idea here!

Since we can't agree on my first scenario, I'll just disprove this statement with a completely different example.

4-33: "A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more
than once
, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot
foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."

That action certainly isn't illegal. :D

just another ref Wed May 20, 2009 06:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603651)

The NFHS does not provide a definition for a step, but the rules book does mention "the other foot touches in a step." I think that we are going to be arguing with coaches who interp it to be whatever supports their cause.

I can state that what I described above is always considered a step by those on TV reviewing a replay and counting feet hitting the floor. That doesn't mean that they are correct, but if that is the prevailing opinion of the masses, then the NFHS just made our job much more difficult and opened us up to taking unnecessary grief.


One can split hairs and argue language specifics here, but the bottom line is that this sentence:

Quote:

A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball.
is a lot more accurate than:

Quote:

He's allowed two steps on a (layup or whatever.)
The second sentence is what a huge number of player/coaches/fans believe.

IREFU2 Thu May 21, 2009 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 603383)
IMO, that's a "landing" followed by one "step" -- not two steps.

A step is a raising of the foot off the floor followed by putting the foot back on the floor.

I agree with your statement Bob....I believe they are talking about a player holding the ball and then taking two steps and shoot.......

IREFU2 Thu May 21, 2009 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603365)
Point #2 on closely-guarded is basically a reprint from 2004-05 with the addition of a section on using the markings on the court to help officials measure the required six-foot distance.

It seems that someone at the NFHS read a thread of ours from this past season and decided to steal information from a post that I made. Of course, no credit was given! :eek: I guess that I should be flattered instead of :mad: .

"Good visual examples of this distance can be found on the court as: the distance between the free-throw line and the top of the semi-circle; from the division line to the jump circle; two adjacent marked lane spaces."

In regards to this, they should make it 3 feet. I believe it can be better determine with this distance. I have seen players extent their arms, just to be within the 6 feet CGP.

M&M Guy Thu May 21, 2009 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IREFU2 (Post 603774)
I agree with your statement Bob....I believe they are talking about a player holding the ball and then taking two step and shoot.......

[devil's advocate on]
Cool, I got it! So when post player A1 gets the ball on the block, with their back to the basket, pivots on the right foot, and the left foot takes 2 (or, gasp...3 or 4 steps!), while the right foot stays firmly planted to the ground, well, hell, that's a travel! Damn, that left foot took actual rule-book defined "STEPS", by gosh!
[/devil's advocate]

vbzebra Thu May 21, 2009 11:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IREFU2 (Post 603775)
In regards to this, they should make it 3 feet. I believe it can be better determine with this distance. I have seen players extent their arms, just to be within the 6 feet CGP.

Extension of arms should have nothing to do with it...

4-10 Closely Guarded.....
"The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler."

just another ref Thu May 21, 2009 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603654)

Since we can't agree on my first scenario, I'll just disprove this statement with a completely different example.

4-33: "A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more
than once
, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot
foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."

That action certainly isn't illegal. :D

This would not be two steps. It would be one step multiple times.

M&M Guy Thu May 21, 2009 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603837)
This would not be two steps. It would be one step multiple times.

But that's not what the rule says, is it? And what is the definition of "step"? Is it in Rule 4 anywhere? Is it anywhere in Rules 1-10?

I'm not picking on you directly, because in theory we agree. I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of making a statement like the committee did that has no rule basis behind it, and does nothing but confuse the issue more for the "less informed" (read: coaches, players, fans).

Why not stick with the real rule: Travelling is moving a foot or feet beyond the prescribed limits. Know what the pivot foot is, and what can or cannot be done with it. Unfortunately, none of the rule-prescribed limits has anything to do with the "number of steps".

just another ref Thu May 21, 2009 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603839)
But that's not what the rule says, is it? And what is the definition of "step"? Is it in Rule 4 anywhere? Is it anywhere in Rules 1-10?

I'm not picking on you directly, because in theory we agree. I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of making a statement like the committee did that has no rule basis behind it, and does nothing but confuse the issue more for the "less informed" (read: coaches, players, fans).

Why not stick with the real rule: Travelling is moving a foot or feet beyond the prescribed limits. Know what the pivot foot is, and what can or cannot be done with it. Unfortunately, none of the rule-prescribed limits has anything to do with the "number of steps".

This whole thing revolves around the fact that there is no definition of step in the rule book. Therefore, when I say step, I am no longer speaking basketball rules, but plain (sorta) English. When I refer to taking two steps, I refer to a player in control of the ball starting with one or both feet on the floor, then progressing ahead with one foot followed by the other. When that second foot hits the floor, if this player is still holding the ball, this is not a legal play. Period.

The condensed version: Two steps while holding the ball is illegal.


IREFU2 Thu May 21, 2009 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vbzebra (Post 603810)
Extension of arms should have nothing to do with it...

4-10 Closely Guarded.....
"The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler."

Agreed, but I have seen others start a count based on this.

M&M Guy Thu May 21, 2009 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603841)
This whole thing revolves around the fact that there is no definition of step in the rule book. Therefore, when I say step, I am no longer speaking basketball rules, but plain (sorta) English. When I refer to taking two steps, I refer to a player in control of the ball starting with one or both feet on the floor, then progressing ahead with one foot followed by the other. When that second foot hits the floor, if this player is still holding the ball, this is not a legal play. Period.

The condensed version: Two steps while holding the ball is illegal.


So, in plain (sorta) English, what do you say to a coach who wants a travel called on this play: A1 catches the ball in the air, the first foot comes down, followed by the second foot. Perfectly legal play, by rule. However, coach says there were two steps taken (first foot landed, followed by the second foot landing). So, how will you explain the difference between a "landing" and a "step"? How will you explain the first foot landing is a "landing", while the second foot landing is a "step", since both feet were off the ground at the time of the catch? If you consider both feet landing, then the player is allowed a step, correct? Well, it depends. If the first foot is lifted and replaced without passing or shooting (1st step?), that is a travel. If the second foot that landed is lifted and replaced before passing or shooting (1st step?), that is a legal pivot.

Meanwhile your partner has left the floor because you're trying to explain to the coach the difference between steps, landings, non-steps, semi-landings, whatever. None of these terms have anything to do with the actual rule. Your condensed version (and the committee's statement) is simply an incorrect over-simplification that doesn't have anything to do with the rules.

just another ref Thu May 21, 2009 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603845)
So, in plain (sorta) English, what do you say to a coach who wants a travel called on this play: A1 catches the ball in the air, the first foot comes down, followed by the second foot. Perfectly legal play, by rule. However, coach says there were two steps taken (first foot landed, followed by the second foot landing).

I say: "No, there were not."

Quote:


So, how will you explain the difference between a "landing" and a "step"?
How will you explain the first foot landing is a "landing", while the second foot landing is a "step", since both feet were off the ground at the time of the catch?
In order to take a step, the player must start with one or both feet on the floor. In the case of a player catching the ball while airborne, obviously he must land before this can take place. Traveling has nothing to do with an airborne player. The illegal part happens after the landing.

Quote:

Your condensed version (and the committee's statement) is simply an incorrect over-simplification that doesn't have anything to do with the rules.
is not:)


Now you say: Is too!

M&M Guy Thu May 21, 2009 03:44pm

Is too. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603852)
I say: "No, there were not."

Coach says: "What rule do you base it on?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603852)
In order to take a step, the player must start with one or both feet on the floor.

And doesn't every player start with both feet on the floor, at some point? Even His Airness started with his feet on the floor. :)

In the whole rule on traveling, 4-44, the word "step" is only used once: "If one foot is on the floor, it is a pivot when the other foot touches in a step". So, if that same other foot is lifted and touched "in a step" more than once, it is a travel, correct?

We can do the "is not", "is too" all day. My point is the committee did not do us a favor by making that statement. It is a lot easier to simply use the rule to explain why a play is a travel or not: "The pivot foot was replaced before the pass." "The pivot foot was lifted before the dribble started." There was no pivot foot allowed on that jump-stop." You're on a lot firmer ground quoting actual rules than trying to make stuff up that isn't in the rule book.

Ch1town Thu May 21, 2009 03:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603862)
Coach says: "What rule do you base it on?"


Whenever a coach questions a no-call for an alleged travel, I ask the coach "what foot did you have for the pivot." 95% of the time they can't answer that, thus that conversation has come to an end. No need discussing a travel if coach can't identify the pivot.

Bad Zebra Thu May 21, 2009 03:56pm

Try this with a wreck coach first:
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603845)
So, in plain (sorta) English, what do you say to a coach who wants a travel called on this play: A1 catches the ball in the air, the first foot comes down, followed by the second foot. Perfectly legal play, by rule. However, coach says there were two steps taken (first foot landed, followed by the second foot landing). So, how will you explain the difference between a "landing" and a "step"? How will you explain the first foot landing is a "landing", while the second foot landing is a "step", since both feet were off the ground at the time of the catch? If you consider both feet landing, then the player is allowed a step, correct? Well, it depends. If the first foot is lifted and replaced without passing or shooting (1st step?), that is a travel. If the second foot that landed is lifted and replaced before passing or shooting (1st step?), that is a legal pivot.

Meanwhile your partner has left the floor because you're trying to explain to the coach the difference between steps, landings, non-steps, semi-landings, whatever. None of these terms have anything to do with the actual rule. Your condensed version (and the committee's statement) is simply an incorrect over-simplification that doesn't have anything to do with the rules.

"Coach, It's not two steps. You can't have a "step" until at least one foot has landed. The first foot was his "landing", the second was a "step". Completely legal."

That would be enough to confuse/infuriate 90% of coaches, so what happens with the next foot that was lifted will go largely unnoticed.

Nevadaref Thu May 21, 2009 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603839)
But that's not what the rule says, is it? And what is the definition of "step"? Is it in Rule 4 anywhere? Is it anywhere in Rules 1-10?

I'm not picking on you directly, because in theory we agree. I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of making a statement like the committee did that has no rule basis behind it, and does nothing but confuse the issue more for the "less informed" (read: coaches, players, fans).

Why not stick with the real rule: Travelling is moving a foot or feet beyond the prescribed limits. Know what the pivot foot is, and what can or cannot be done with it. Unfortunately, none of the rule-prescribed limits has anything to do with the "number of steps".

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/thumbsup.gif

I'm now going to sit back and let you champion this cause for me. :D

just another ref Thu May 21, 2009 07:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603845)
So, in plain (sorta) English, what do you say to a coach who wants a travel called on this play: A1 catches the ball in the air, the first foot comes down, followed by the second foot. Perfectly legal play, by rule. However, coach says there were two steps taken ........

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603852)
I say: "No, there were not."



In order to take a step, the player must start with one or both feet on the floor. In the case of a player catching the ball while airborne, obviously he must land before this can take place. Traveling has nothing to do with an airborne player. The illegal part happens after the landing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 603862)


Coach says: "What rule do you base it on?"



4-44-2: If both feet are off the floor and the player lands on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.

It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.


Next question

M&M Guy Fri May 22, 2009 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603910)
4-44-2: If both feet are off the floor and the player lands on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.

It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.


Next question

Regarding the step with the other foot - are you saying the second step with that other foot would be illegal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603910)
The condensed version: Two steps while holding the ball is illegal.


M&M Guy Fri May 22, 2009 10:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 603873)
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/thumbsup.gif

I'm now going to sit back and let you champion this cause for me. :D

Aw, c'mon, can't we do it tag-team wrestling style? I'm starting to get a little winded doing all the work while you sit back back in the expensive ring-side seats. :D

Nevadaref Fri May 22, 2009 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 604019)
Aw, c'mon, can't we do it tag-team wrestling style? I'm starting to get a little winded doing all the work while you sit back back in the expensive ring-side seats. :D

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/popcorn.gif

M&M Guy Fri May 22, 2009 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 604132)

Drop that popcorn - TAG - you're now in the ring.

I'm going home to get a brownpop and start the weekend. :D

just another ref Fri May 22, 2009 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 603910)
4-44-2: If both feet are off the floor and the player lands on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.

It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.


Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 604015)
Regarding the step with the other foot - are you saying the second step with that other foot would be illegal?

Now we're into semantics again. Even though the above rule refers to the second foot touching as a step, if the player moves the same foot more than once, while keeping the pivot stationary, not only is this legal, I personally do not consider that this player has taken any steps at all.

The more I think about this, the dumber it all seems. This argument has nothing to do with the rule, but rather how to communicate with people who lack the proper understanding of the rule. Is there a correct answer to this question?

What was the original question again?

BillyMac Fri May 22, 2009 06:49pm

One Less Click ...
 
NFHS BASKETBALL 2009-10 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

1. TRAVELING. The traveling rule has not changed; however, the committee is still concerned that the rule is not being properly enforced. Consequently, offensive players are gaining a tremendous advantage. Areas of specific concern are: the spin move, the step-through move, the jump stop, perimeter shooters taking an extra “hop” prior to releasing the try and ball handlers lifting the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on the dribble. The key to determining the legality of those moves is to first find the pivot foot. Then, if the player moves a foot or the feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits, a traveling violation has occurred. Officials must know the rule, find the pivot foot and improve call accuracy; coaches must demand that players execute this skill properly, especially in practice; players must continue to develop this basic skill and practice performing legal moves.

Guidelines for Teaching and Officiating
A. Determine the pivot foot immediately.
B. At the start of the dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted.
C. After the dribble has ended, the player may lift pivot foot, but must release the ball on a pass or shot before the pivot foot returns to floor.
D. A player may never take two steps while in possession of the ball.

2. CLOSELY GUARDED. Well-officiated, closely-guarded situations provide for better balance between offense and defense. When the closely-guarded rules are not followed, there is a significant advantage for the offense. The following areas are to be emphasized:

A. Rule basics. A closely-guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team’s frontcourt, is guarded by an opponent who is within 6 feet of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball; the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position. A player shall not hold the ball for five seconds or dribble the ball for five seconds while closely guarded in his or her frontcourt. A player can legally hold the ball while closely guarded for four seconds, dribble the ball for four seconds and hold the ball again for four seconds before violating.

B. Measuring 6 feet. Officials must define and have a clear image of the 6-foot guarding distance necessary. Too frequently, officials require the defensive player to be within 3 to 4 feet prior to the count being initiated. Good visual examples of this distance can be found on the court as: the distance between the free-throw line and the top of the semi-circle; from the division line to the jump circle; two adjacent marked lane spaces. Failure to properly judge the 6-foot distance and require the defender to be within 3 or 4 feet of the dribbler before beginning the count puts the defensive player in an unfair position.

C. Ending the count. A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within 6 feet. The count also stops when a closely guarded player: completes a dribble anywhere in the team’s own frontcourt; starts a dribble in the team’s own frontcourt and ends it anywhere in the frontcourt (a new five-second count will start if the player holds the ball); loses possession of the ball for any reason in the team’s own frontcourt; or has his or her dribble interrupted. If a closely-guarded player beats the defender(s) by getting head and shoulders past the defensive player, the count has ended.

D. Multiple defenders. The count should continue even if there is a defensive switch, provided the 6-foot distance is maintained. There is no requirement for the defensive player to remain the same during the count as long as the offensive player is closely guarded throughout.

E. Counting mechanics. The official begins a visible count when the 6-foot distance is established and must switch arms when going directly from one counting situation to another.

3. THREE-SECONDS. When a team is in control of the ball in its frontcourt, a player of that team may not remain in the lane for three seconds. The lane is bounded by the end line and the farther edge of the free-throw line – and includes the lane lines.

A. Team control. In order to understand the administration of the rule, it is necessary to know when team control exists. Team control exists: during player control, holding and dribbling inbounds; during a pass between teammates; during an interrupted dribble. Team control continues until: the ball is in flight during a try for goal; an opponent secures control; the ball becomes dead. Team control does not exist during the tapping of a rebound or when the ball is loose following a try. There is no team control during a throw-in. The three-second restriction is not in effect when there is no team control, and is terminated the instant team control ends.

B. Exception. Allowance is made and the count is momentarily stopped when a restricted player has the ball and dribbles or makes a move to try for goal. However, the previous count is resumed if the player does not continue and try for goal. Some may feel that exception complicates the rule, but it is necessary in order to balance the offense and defense. The most obvious misinterpretation of this rule is when the restricted player has a two-second count when he or she begins the move to try for goal, but is stopped or the ball is batted loose. The player involved, while in the lane, attempts to regain possession and instead of continuing the count, the official erroneously stops it entirely. If the player starts a move to the basket and the ball is jarred loose, the previous count is resumed and results in a violation if it reaches three seconds. The purpose of the rule is circumvented if a violation is not called when this occurs.

C. Screener. Another situation that is occurring more frequently, and which is often not properly called, is when an offensive player sets a screen in the lane and remains there for more than three seconds. The responsible official must make sure that offensive players are not occupying restricted positions for more than the permitted time. The offensive player gains an unwarranted advantage if he or she can “camp out” in the lane, either as a potential shooter or as a screener.

D. Rough post play. When the three-second rule is properly enforced, rough post play is likely reduced. Post defenders cannot be expected to defend and deny an opponent in the lane indefinitely. When an offensive post player “camps out” in the lane, defenders tend to get frustrated and become more physical. Calling this infraction when it occurs goes a long way to decreasing rough post play – an area that has been emphasized for many years.

BillyMac Fri May 22, 2009 06:49pm

One Less Click (Part II) ...
 
4. BLOCK/CHARGE. The obtaining and maintaining of a legal guarding position on a person with and without the ball has been a point of emphasis over the years, but yet, remains one of the most difficult plays to coach and officiate.

A. The basics. To correctly understand the guarding rule, the following points are critical:
1) To obtain an initial guarding position on a player with the ball, the defender must get to the spot first without contact, have both feet touching the floor, and initially face the opponent.
2) Once the initial guarding position has been obtained, the defender may move laterally or at an angle or backwards in order to maintain a legal guarding position. Keep in mind that when a defender obtains an initial position with both feet touching the floor and facing his/her opponent, the defender need not be stationary but may continue to move in order to stay in front of the person with the ball.
3) Once the defender obtains a legal guarding position, the defender may raise his/her hands in a normal stance or may jump vertically within his/her vertical plane.
4) A defender may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
5) A player is never permitted to move into the path of an opponent after the opponent has jumped into the air.
6) A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent and causes contact is not considered to be in a legal guarding position.

B. Guarding a player with the ball. Points to remember when a defender is guarding a player with the ball:
1) Time and distance are of no consequence. If the defender gets to the spot first and is in a legal guarding position, the onus is on the person with the ball.
2) A defender is never permitted to move into an opponent and thus cause contact.
3) If a player with the ball gets his/her shoulders past the front of the torso of the defender and contact occurs, the defender has blocked and a foul must be called. In order for the defender to re-obtain a legal guarding position, all “guarding a person with the ball” criteria must be met.
4) When an offensive player receives a long pass with his/her back turned and places one foot on the floor and crashes into a legally set defender, it is a player-control foul. It seems many officials are calling this a traveling violation, which is incorrect.

C. Guarding a player without the ball. Time and distance are the key factors. The distance allowed depends on the speed in which the offensive player is moving, with the distance never to exceed two strides, regardless of how fast he or she is moving. Once the defender has met the criteria of both feet touching the court and initially facing the opponent, the defender has obtained a legal guarding position and may move the same as if he/she were guarding a player with the ball.

5. FREE-THROW ADMINISTRATION. Over the years, NFHS rules committees have been concerned with an increase in rough play during free throws. There have been several rules changes and Points of Emphasis during this time to address these concerns. Last year, a change was made to move all players up one lane space, leaving the two lane spaces closest to the end line vacant. The change attempted to reduce rough play during free-throw situations, while maintaining acceptable defensive rebounding percentages. The following areas are still of concern and are being emphasized:

A. Lane-space requirements. The first marked lane spaces on each side of the lane, above and adjacent to the neutral-zone marks, shall be occupied by opponents of the free thrower. No teammate of the free thrower shall occupy either of these marked lane spaces. If the offense desires the second spaces, it may have them. If the defense desires the third spaces, it may have them. If a player entitled to the second or third space does not occupy that space, an opponent may be in the space (within the number limitations, four defense and two offense). All officials are responsible for ensuring players are in their proper spaces. The administering official (Lead) should check each space for proper alignment before bouncing the ball to the shooter. If these requirements are not met, see 9-1-9 Penalty.

B. Rough Play. Coaches must not teach players to “lock up” arms along the lane line, nor drive players farther under the basket with brute force. Offensive players in the second position must not be permitted to displace or push the defensive player in the first lane position. In addition, defensive players in the last position should not be permitted to displace the free-throw shooter. Fouls must be called for illegal contact and displacement on free throws, just as they would be for illegal rebounding activity off of any try.

C. Disconcertion. With the space closest to the shooter now occupied, disconcertion is a concern. Of particular concern is when the free throw will become dead (first of two or first two of three). Defensive players often employ tactics which serve no other purpose than to disconcert the shooter during free throws (“boxing out” the free thrower off the free-throw line, waving arms, yelling instructions to teammates, etc.)

D. Other violations. Players are attempting to gain a rebounding advantage by violating the free-throw restrictions and entering the lane early. No player shall enter, leave or touch the court outside the marked lane space (3 feet by 3 feet). Officials must review and enforce the rules regarding offensive and defensive free-throw violations.

E. Officials’ Positions. Officials must be positioned appropriately to administer free-throw situations properly. In a crew of three, the Lead official should be approximately 4 feet to the nearer lane line and well off the end line for all free throws. The center should be halfway between the nearer free-throw lane and the sideline, at approximately the free-throw line extended – a step up or down to get the best angle to observe the opposite two top spaces and the free throw shooter. The Trail official should be at approximately the 28-foot mark and just inside the tableside boundary line – not at or near the division line!

COMMENTS ON THE 2009-10 RULES REVISIONS

REPLAY PERMITTED AT THE CONCLUSION OF STATE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES CONTESTS (2-2-1 NOTE): A state association may now permit game or replay officials to utilize available replay equipment to determine the outcome of a state championship series game. When a try for goal occurs at the expiration of time in the fourth quarter or any overtime period (0:00 on the game clock), replay equipment may be used to determine if the try should be counted, and if so, if it was a two- or a three-point goal. Individual state associations will determine if the equipment will be used, at what tournament round(s) and by whom. This same technology is already being utilized after state contests by the media and being showcased on the Internet. State administrators should also be permitted to use this same technology, if available and desired, to assist in making the correct call when the outcome of the game hangs in the balance and a team has no further opportunities to overcome a critical error.

RED/LED LIGHT PERMITTED TO END QUARTER/EXTRA PERIOD (1-14; 5-6-2): When a red light behind the backboard or an LED light on the backboard is present, it is permitted to signal the expiration of time in the quarter or extra period. If no red/LED light is present, the audible timer’s signal will continue to signal the expiration of time. The change permits equipment currently found in some facilities to be utilized rather than ignored. All other end-of-period rules remain intact. During their pregame responsibilities, game officials should determine if red/LED lights are present in order to adjudicate end-of-period situations properly.


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