Almost every official i talk to says the ball can cause a foul. A1 with ball turns into B1. The ball is between both players. either the off. or def. gets displaced. I don't feel the ball cause a foul. I think you can make a case if the A1 intentionally uses the ball and pushes the defender, but i have never seen that happen. What do you think?

Hey. I dont know who has ever said that a ball can cause a foul. The ball does not push, nor get thrown into a player. It is the action of the player in control of the ball who causes the foul. Consequently, I have always been told that the ball never causes a foul. In the situation you described, I would rule that the displacement is caused by incidental contact, a natural part of the game, and not a foul. The only way there is a foul is if there is action by one of the players. Hope this helps.

And how many fouls does the ball get before it is disqualified?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NCref23 on 03-02-2000 03:19 PM
Hey. I dont know who has ever said that a ball can cause a foul....It is the action of the player in control of the ball who causes the foul. Consequently, I have always been told that the ball never causes a foul....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, the ball itself doesn't "cause" a foul, but if the action of the player WITH the ball results in contact that places the opponent at a disadvantage, it can still be a foul. If a player pivots and turns into a legally positioned opponent, and the ball happens to strike him instead of the body/shoulder but still displace him, I'd call a foul (player control)--if that amount of contact would be a foul WITHOUT the ball, then it's probably a foul WITH the ball. At the same time, we should be prepared to determine whether the contact itself was incidental and had no bearing on the play. If the ball handler subsequently gets a clear shot at or drive to the hoop, I'd say it affected the play and should be called.

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited March 02, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker on 03-02-2000 05:41 PM
True, the ball itself doesn't "cause" a foul, but if the action of the player WITH the ball results in contact that places the opponent at a disadvantage, it can still be a foul. If a player pivots and turns into a legally positioned opponent, and the ball happens to strike him instead of the body/shoulder but still displace him, I'd call a foul (player control)--if that amount of contact would be a foul WITHOUT the ball, then it's probably a foul WITH the ball. At the same time, we should be prepared to determine whether the contact itself was incidental and had no bearing on the play. If the ball handler subsequently gets a clear shot at or drive to the hoop, I'd say it affected the play and should be called.

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited March 02, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Todd. In Rule 4-7-2d, it states,"The player with the ball my not push the torso of the guard to gain an advantage..." It doesn't state with the hands, hips, knee, feet, arm, etc. I would include using the ball as a method of pushing in this description.

I think everyone is getting too hung up on the ball part of the question. If the contact is intentional, or caused an advantage/disadvantage situation, you need to call the foul. Otherwise we will see guys in the post palming the ball, pushing the defender out of the way, and getting an easy bucket. One way to think about this situation is: If A1 intentionally throws the ball at B1's head, do you call a T? Just because the "ball" caused contact rather than a fist would any official let this go. I wouldn't.

Balls don't commit fouls, players commit fouls.
Look up FOULS under definitions!

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Don

If the ball intended to injure a player do you call a flagrant foul on the ball and eject it?

What if the ball "hisses" at you. Is it an unsportsmanlike technical?
http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/wink.gif

If I already ejected the ball for a flagrant, then I'd probably let the hiss "pass," as long as it wasn't directly facing me.

I have never seen an offensive player use the ball to displace the defender. They generally try everything to keep the ball away from the defender so as to avoid a jump ball.

Just one final question. If the ball has to leave the game for its 5th personal, does coach have 30 seconds to replace the ball or doesn't it apply in this case?????

God forgive me.

The intent of my comment was not to imply that an inanimate object (i.e. the ball) could cause a foul. Rather, if the player is using the inanimate object as an instrument to cause a foul, you must call it. In the original question, the way the play was described A1 used to ball to displace B1. If he used his hip, elbow, or rump we call it, but because the orange is in between we don't? He still purposefully caused a disadvantage situation, you must blow your whistle. Like I said before, if I called a game, with a player using just the ball to move his defender out of the way, getting easy buckets, and I never called it “because the ball can’t cause a foul”; I bet my state association would have a very long talk with me if and when they saw the tape.

On the other note, if the ball whizzed by my head I would need to rely on my partner to determine if it was accidental or intentional and flagrant. I had a game four or five years ago where my partner called a charge on A1. As he was going to report the foul, A1 went to retrieve the ball, took a few steps to move behind my partner (as I was asking for the ball) and fired the ball right at his head. It barely missed my partner but took out the book, three drinks, and displaced the plug from the clock. Now, there was no question the player did it on purpose, and intended to hit my partner with the ball. He had no clue what went on behind him, but you can guess where I had the player watch the rest of the game.

I would make the same call if it were another player instead of my partner. We are looked upon to ensure the safety of players, coaches, and officials. We are supposed to toss a player just for throwing a punch (hit or miss) or seemingly throwing a punch, how is this different? It is an intentional, flagrant act, and could cause injury. And no, I would not call anything if someone was trying to be like Magic and no-looks a pass into someone’s face. That is not an intentional act, even though you have to wait for host mgt. to mop up the gallon of blood from the recipients’ nose.

I normally enjoy and respect the opinions of most, if not all of the officials that post. But, if a player used my head for target practice I would hope one of you guys would have the fortitude to make the call rather than joke about it. That can be left for after season banquets, when most odd plays become funny.

We certainly get a lot of funny comments. I don't think we see it much. I've only seen a few times. I remember passing on the call two times, but my partners called a foul in both in both of these plays. I brought it up because i recently had a play where i called a charge because the player out of control and ran into two defender fairly hard. At halftime my partner said good call, she used the ball to displace the defender. I told him i didn't call it because of the ball, but it did make for an interestion topic.
Brian, i don't think intent matters when it comes to throwing the ball hard in dead ball situation. I've seen players throw the ball hard with no intent and hit an official, although it wouldn't matter if it hit another player.

Brian,

I'm pretty sure my response to the original post agrees with what you are saying, and my sense is that most of the guys responding also agree. In the meantime, a little levity came up in good fun, probably because we don't see it as a big issue of contention--OF COURSE most of us would "have the fortitude" to call a foul in the situation you described. That's not what the joking was about. It was about having a couple of chuckles over a play on words (i.e., the ball causing a foul). I, for one, found the comments amusing.