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-   -   Shot clock violation in Pitt-Xavier Game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/52551-shot-clock-violation-pitt-xavier-game.html)

bas2456 Thu Mar 26, 2009 08:15pm

Shot clock violation in Pitt-Xavier Game
 
Are possible shot clock violations reviewable by video?

If they went to the monitor, they would see clearly that they missed the call on the court. Can they correct this?

grunewar Thu Mar 26, 2009 08:17pm

I saw the play too and thought it was a violation.

I'm not familiar enough w/ NCAA rules however to know the answer, but I would think it's not reviewable.

Marcusmav Thu Mar 26, 2009 08:48pm

I'm pretty sure it's not reviewable.

JRutledge Thu Mar 26, 2009 08:57pm

They can determine if there is a malfunction with the shot clock. I am not sure that took place here though.

Peace

eyezen Thu Mar 26, 2009 08:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591762)
Are possible shot clock violations reviewable by video?

If they went to the monitor, they would see clearly that they missed the call on the court. Can they correct this?

Are you sure it was clear? Just because the clock SHOWS zero doesn't mean it would be a violation until the horn.

bas2456 Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:18pm

Shouldn't the horn and "0" be simultaneous since they don't show tenths of a second?

And if you watch the replay, you can clearly see the ball still in contact with the player's hand well after the clock hits zero.

dahoopref Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:21pm

I've been told by a few D1 officials about this and the sentiment is this:

They must state that the crew is going to the monitor to review a "timing error;" not for a violation. They can then check to see if the ball hit the rim or not. It's a technicality on words by saying they are checking a timing error.

Rule 2 Sec 13 Art 2c
Timing
4. Determine whether the shot clock failed to properly start, stop, set
or reset
or that the shot clock has malfunctioned.
Determination is
based on the judgment of the official. The mistake or malfunctioning
problem may only be corrected in the shot clock period in which
it occurred. Any activity after the mistake or malfunction has been
committed and until it has been rectified shall be canceled, excluding
a flagrant personal foul, intentional personal foul or any technical
foul.

eyezen Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591775)
Shouldn't the horn and "0" be simultaneous since they don't show tenths of a second?

And if you watch the replay, you can clearly see the ball still in contact with the player's hand well after the clock hits zero.

No they are not simultaneous, and unless the replay you saw was real time, and didn't see a realtime replay during the broadcast, then how long is "well after"?

bas2456 Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:33pm

Watch this video.

YouTube - Kyle Korver Beats the Shot Clock to Ice the Game for the Jazz

I know it's NBA, but 0 and horn sure seem simultaneous to me.

bas2456 Thu Mar 26, 2009 09:51pm

They didn't show a real-time replay and the TV I was watching on didn't have DVR, so I couldn't rewind it.

The slow-motion replay showed there were at least 3 frames between 0 and the release of the shot. Not sure how much time that equates to, but that kind of play could have a real impact on the game. The play in question gave Xavier a one point lead at the time, and the way that game was going, it very well could have stayed a one point game.

If this sort of play isn't reviewable, I think it should be. They shouldn't have to find a loophole in the rules to get a call right.

Lotto Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:23pm

Not reviewable unless the game clock shows 0:00
 
Here's the NCAA rule that says that this call is *not* reviewable:

2-13.6 The officials shall not use such available equipment for judgment calls such as:
d. Whether the ball was released before the sounding of the shot-clock horn, except as in 2-13.3.b.

The exception only occurs where there are zeros on the game clock:

2-13.3 When there is a reading of zeros on the game clock and after making a call on the playing court, the officials shall use such available equipment in the following situations:
b. Determine whether a shot-clock violation occurred before the reading of zeros on the game clock at the end of the first half, or at the end of the second half/extra period only when necessary to determine the outcome of a game.

bas2456 Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:29pm

Thanks for that citation, Lotto.

i still think they should look at changing this rule, because many times, it's clear one way or the other. With HD technology being pretty prevalent, I would bet they would be able to get this call correct nearly 100% of the time

Nevadaref Fri Mar 27, 2009 03:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591762)
Are possible shot clock violations reviewable by video?

If they went to the monitor, they would see clearly that they missed the call on the court. Can they correct this?

See my previous post in this other thread: http://forum.officiating.com/590838-post42.html

bob jenkins Fri Mar 27, 2009 07:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591781)
Watch this video.

YouTube - Kyle Korver Beats the Shot Clock to Ice the Game for the Jazz

I know it's NBA, but 0 and horn sure seem simultaneous to me.

On some clocks that's true. On some it's not.

At least according to a lenghty explanation given on eofficials in discussing the answer to one of this season's NCAAW quiz questions.

Frankly, I think there's way too much review. Lots of calls happen (or don't happen) during a game -- the teams need to "overcome" those calls.

Only calls that happen at the end of the game (and I admit it's tough to come up with a specific definition of this), where the team doesn't have a chance to "overcome" it should be allowed.

bas2456 Fri Mar 27, 2009 08:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 591828)
On some clocks that's true. On some it's not.

At least according to a lenghty explanation given on eofficials in discussing the answer to one of this season's NCAAW quiz questions.

Frankly, I think there's way too much review. Lots of calls happen (or don't happen) during a game -- the teams need to "overcome" those calls.

Only calls that happen at the end of the game (and I admit it's tough to come up with a specific definition of this), where the team doesn't have a chance to "overcome" it should be allowed.

If it's not true for all clocks, then shouldn't an effort be made to make it true or not true for all clocks?

There is alot of review, and this is a debate that could go on for days, so I'll just throw in my 2 cents now. There is alot of review, in all sports. Even baseball has succumbed to reviewing a certain play. Some don't like how much review there is. But there's an increasing desire to get the calls right. If you have the technology, why not review it and make sure you get the correct call? That way, you don't have people wondering, "what if?". You know you've got the right call, and you can move on.

refguy Fri Mar 27, 2009 08:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591788)
They didn't show a real-time replay and the TV I was watching on didn't have DVR, so I couldn't rewind it.

The slow-motion replay showed there were at least 3 frames between 0 and the release of the shot. Not sure how much time that equates to, but that kind of play could have a real impact on the game. The play in question gave Xavier a one point lead at the time, and the way that game was going, it very well could have stayed a one point game.

If this sort of play isn't reviewable, I think it should be. They shouldn't have to find a loophole in the rules to get a call right.

They didn't review the block charge play just before that either. Instead of a turnover and the fouls being 5-4, Pitt put 2 points on the board and fouls were 6-3. And it was their best defender's 4th foul. Both teams had multiple chances to win.

bas2456 Fri Mar 27, 2009 08:50am

I think there's a difference in reviewing fouls because they aren't black and white like whether or not the ball was in or out of the shooter's hand before the clock hits 0.

Cleefy Fri Mar 27, 2009 08:58am

It's good being able to comment on these situations now from down under. We've recently launched a new 24/7 sports channel, and I get to see a fair bit of NCAA.

Just thought I'd chime in and say that the ball definitely hadn't left his hand. I don't know your rules though...

refguy Fri Mar 27, 2009 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591842)
I think there's a difference in reviewing fouls because they aren't black and white like whether or not the ball was in or out of the shooter's hand before the clock hits 0.

Some fouls are like the one I mentioned.

Kelvin green Fri Mar 27, 2009 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591842)
I think there's a difference in reviewing fouls because they aren't black and white like whether or not the ball was in or out of the shooter's hand before the clock hits 0.

why? Shot clock violation is just a violation like a travel, basket interference, three seconds, or backcourt. If you could review that shot then why not review everything. There is a point you just cant do it... Look at football and what they have (look at new pro rules)... If all these palys were subject to review the game would take all night and have no flow...

bradfordwilkins Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591837)
If it's not true for all clocks, then shouldn't an effort be made to make it true or not true for all clocks?

There is alot of review, and this is a debate that could go on for days, so I'll just throw in my 2 cents now. There is alot of review, in all sports. Even baseball has succumbed to reviewing a certain play. Some don't like how much review there is. But there's an increasing desire to get the calls right. If you have the technology, why not review it and make sure you get the correct call? That way, you don't have people wondering, "what if?". You know you've got the right call, and you can move on.

Where does it stop though? Pretty soon we'll just be referees who have earpieces to the TV truck where the officials will tell us when to blow whistles lol

Adam Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 591837)
If it's not true for all clocks, then shouldn't an effort be made to make it true or not true for all clocks?

You might be able to get away with this at the NBA level, but not anywhere else. There's no way to regulate how clocks are manufactured. At the NBA level, with a limited number of venues, they could enforce this. College? Doubtful.

High school? Not a chance.

Violations should not be reviewable. You gonna add whether or not he stepped on the line to the list of reviewable plays?

rulesmaven Fri Mar 27, 2009 03:50pm

An interesting point that is not really directly responsive to the question here, but it's about the game and shot clocks in NCAA.

The game clock usually shows less time on the clock than there really is in the game, until zero. The shot clock shows more time than is usually on the shot clock.

For example, when the game clock shows 11:11, there is really MORE than (or exactly equal to) 11:11 on the clock -- maybe as much as .99 seconds. The best way to see this visually is at the beginning of the game, when the clock ticks from 20:00 to 19:59 immediately, not in one second. You see it again when the clock goes to tenths of a second. The clock lingers on 1:00 for a full second before showing 59.9. The reason is that while the clock is showing 1:00, the amount of time left is really between 1:01 and 1:00. In other words, the game clock is always rounding down to the nearest second (or in the last minute to the nearest tenth).

The shot clock is different. You don't see the second tick off UNTIL the second is actually expired. So, unlike the game clock, when the shot clock is started, it takes a full second before it goes from 35 to 34. This is why, for example, you can see the odd situation where the game clock shows 34.5, but the shot clock still shows 35. It seems the shot clock should be off at the point, but not really. The true time left on the shot clock might really only be 34.2, even though it shows 35, because it doesn't tick down to 34 until it gets to 34.

Very long winded way of saying that the shot clock horn should always be simultaneous with 0, because as soon as it says zero, there is no more time in the 35 seconds.

pizanno Fri Mar 27, 2009 05:39pm

actually....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rulesmaven (Post 592025)

This is why, for example, you can see the odd situation where the game clock shows 34.5, but the shot clock still shows 35. It seems the shot clock should be off at the point, but not really. The true time left on the shot clock might really only be 34.2, even though it shows 35, because it doesn't tick down to 34 until it gets to 34.

Very long winded way of saying that the shot clock horn should always be simultaneous with 0, because as soon as it says zero, there is no more time in the 35 seconds.

As Bob Jenkins referenced, the NCAAW quiz had a question on this that caused so much discussion, they posted a bulletin that said (paraphrasing) by rule, you must turn the shot clock off when time exceeds game clock (REGARDLESS of your "knowledge" or logic.)

They don't state a reasoning, but it's likely because not all shot clocks operate the same (different manufacturers).

The most obvious solution will be to include tenths of seconds on shot clocks, but it may not happen for quite a while.

We discussed this here:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...k-no-horn.html

Mark Dexter Sat Mar 28, 2009 09:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizanno (Post 592041)
They don't state a reasoning, but it's likely because not all shot clocks operate the same (different manufacturers).

Bingo.

As an example, I've worked at two different D-I schools, each of which has the shot clock set to automatically turn off when there is less time on the game clock than on the shot clock. At one school, the shot clock turns off when there are 35.9 seconds on the clock, at another, it doesn't turn off until 35.0.


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