Spin Move are traveling violations
 

Just about every spin move I have seen in this tournament has been travel but nobody calls it. Why?

YouTube - Kansas Defeats Memphis for 2008 NCAA Basketball Championship

This is from last year tournament but I have recorded many games high school and college. I slowed them down and almost every spin move has been a travel.

Watch this video and stop it at the 1:35 mark. The big man has the ball and his pivot foot has been established. Then he steps to the basket and puts his pivot foot back on the floor before he releases the ball.

:mad:

You're right, they missed that one. And? I haven't really seen any that blatant that get missed.

They missed a couple against Villanova today.

FIBA's video collection for 2007 and 2008 both contains travel videos and the spin move is specifically shown to be a travel. In other cases, it shows when it's not a travel. There is a HUGE difference in real estate covered.

These were everywhere you looked tonight, it seemed. If this is indeed an NCAA rule, traveling that is, and if there has not been a memo stating that "pretty moves shall not be called violations," then you would think this call would be made at least occasionally. Is this hard to see with 100% certainty? Yes. But would it be unforgivable if someday this move was called a travel, when in reality it was not? But it's okay to allow the illegal move, roughly, a jillion times a season.

A jillion? C'mon JAR, I've told you over a thousand times not to exagerate! ;)

I was thinking of posting this exact same thing
 

If you go to eofficials.com then go to the womens ncaa section. There are a bunch of online videos stressing this exact move. The head of the women's officiating is telling the ncaaw officials to make this traveling call on the spin move where the offensive player goes off two feet after lifting the pivot foot.

It is strange that the rules for ncaam and ncaaw are different(at least it seems that way and I do know that they are not supposed to be except in a few instances).

The holding is another area of difference. The online videos stress that when hands are put upon a player then it should be called a foul and they show an example when the foul is not called the offensive player then elbows the defender and the first hands foul not being called caused the second foul by the offensive player.

As a 'Nova fan I have to admit Cunningham has gotten away with a few travels over the last couple games. Last night he travelled into an And-1.

The rules are the same. John Adams this year has been exasperated by official's failure to call traveling well at all. Direct quote:

4. I'm not sure what our problem with traveling is. I believe most Division I
referees can recite the rule and understand it so I am left with the assumption that they don't get in good position to see the whole play start, develop, and finish. Remember, the trail official can help with travels in the low post!

I'm not sure I agree with him on one part - that most officials understand what traveling is. I remember I did a simple up and under move as a demonstration at a clinic where I lifted my pivot foot, released the ball on a shot before it touched the floor again. Just about every men's official there said traveling (including a final 4 official) while most women's officials there said legal play. Another official (D1 Tournament) at a clinic told coaches that if it looked funny it would get called. I think the biggest problem is that they don't work on improving in this area.

I actually called a travel on a spin move in a HS boys reserve game this year, and the coach started jawing it was a good move. I told coach to watch that spin move next time, and tell me how it's NOT a travel. Coach just couldn't see it. My partner noticed the next one, and he called it. I think in that game alone we called it about 10 times and both coaches just couldn't get it. The AD was complimenting us after, saying the first one caught him by surprise, but the rest, he started to see the trend, and was just dumbfounded neither coach could figure it out!

The kids are clearly picking up this move from the TV and must be practising it. I've seen it become prevelant in the past couple of years and it is frustrating when some officials don't call it. :mad:

Called one last night. They were livid hah.

I worked a game this season with a D1 women's official who gave me this piece of advice as it pertains to the spin move and traveling:

If the inside foot on the spin move is replanted, the player has probably committed a traveling violation. In other words, if the player jumps off two feet it is probably traveling. If the player jumps off one foot to shoot, the play is probably legal.

Of course, this depends on when the ball is actually secured by the ball handler.

Probably better to just find the pivot foot and then see if it gets replanted.

So, it sounds like the official has to know what the pivot is, and if it replants again to the floor, it is a travel.

Good advice. ;)

Actually, on many of the moves in question, it is obvious that both
feet are lifted then returned to the floor.

I always find it interesting how people sit on their couch and claim what officials miss. I wonder if I went to their games and could role back the tape and see what they missed.

Peace

Not just a claim. It's there. Many of the travels discussed here are obvious to me when they happen, and yes, I have the benefit of dvr to confirm the play.
The point is, the guys calling the tournament are supposed to be on another level. I find it difficult to believe that they miss this many calls of this type. Therefore, one must conclude that the travel is in many cases ignored. The question is why?? I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.
Perhaps you have one.

You are right, you have the benefit of your DVR. The officials on the floor did not.

What makes you think they "ignored" (your word) a travel as opposed to just missed a travel?

My point is that I bet if I go to your game, I probably can find a lot of things missed (travels, carries, fouls, judgments). I know when I watch tape of myself. I do not see perfections either. Then again I am not coming here stating that they missed but I would do better. Now that is your right to say that, but it is a lot easier to say what should be called on the sideline. And in my opinion spin moves are very difficult to identify at a higher speed than most of us ever see. I would rather have a technically missed travel and a travel that did not take place being called. I wish I had a dollar for every time I see a non-violation called by high school officials, I would be rich.

Peace

If they are missing the same violation over and over, if they never watch video, see this call missed over and over, if their supervisor, with benefit of his dvr, did not point out these missed calls, their system is no better than mine.

By this statement it is rather clear you do not work a lot of college ball. You obviously are putting the “system’ on some level you clearly do not understand. These officials might be good, but the make some of the same mistakes we do.

Secondly there are priorities in officiating. And a missed travel does not mean you are a horrible official. I saw a missed carry last night too, the sky is not falling. :rolleyes:

Peace

Early on, I had seen lotsa:

A1 receives pass with both feet on the floor. A1 hops and lands to set feet, and then elevates for a perimeter jumper.

I clearly do not understand this statement, because it is meaningless.

Obviously that is the case when you compared what they do at their level to your level.

NEWSFLASH!!!!

Evaluators are not spending hours talking about every little travel that took place or that is missed. This is not the NBA we are talking about where the NBA actually goes over every play and every call and non-call in a game.

Peace

Rut is right. The officials in Div 1 basketball are independent contractors and on the road almost everyday, so they don't have the time to sit down with the assignor every week, and analyze the tapes like the NBA officials. The NBA officials are employees who have to meet with their boss every week and go through the tapes. The only thing that can happen at Div 1 level, is a school could send a tape into the conference assignor with specific "concerns" on which the assignor will take a look at, and if there is any issue, then the assignor will contact the official(s) and have a discussion regarding it.

This is key when officiating the post. At camps I've been to, observers and supervisors have said want the defender officiated first and foremost. With my eyes on the defender, my peripheral vision would have to catch a "elephant" travel than an "ant" travel to make that call.

That makes two of us, John.

But the Trail can't take the play off, eh ? ;)

All these officials are provided dvd's after every single game they do. Supervisors ask that they review their games. The problem is as stated above: they do too many games and don't take the time to review tape and get better. I had multiple partners this year gripe about waiting for the dvd after the game because "I ain't watching it anyway." Most coaches will say players improve more during practice than during the game. Is it any different for officials? These guys are working more games in a shorter period than NBA guys and gal where it's their job. Then in the off-season are they breaking down film of their games? Or are they busy catching up with their job they haven't been to for 4 months? Or are they at camps as observers busy working on other people's game instead of their own?

So if they review and see 40 of these spin moves, and see that 37 of them are travels, it seems that they might call one a travel eventually.

Unless they have been told to ignore travels in certain situations. The (non) call on this play is very consistent. But if there is a rule which will never be enforced, whether it be traveling or shirt tails, it should be changed in the books.

I am sure that if an official wants a copy of a game it is not hard to get, but to say all of them have DVDs for games is not really accurate. Some conferences have games online on a secure website. And I would not suggest that many of them decide not to watch tape. I am sure just like anything in life you have people that care and others that do not care. All individuals that work that level are not employed the same way either. Some run their own businesses or their in sales where travel is already apart of their job. And not everyone is working 100 games a season either.

Peace

Worked the semi-finals for a men's league in a town near me. Most of the guys are ex-college guys. I am happy to report that I called a bunch of spin-move travels. Somewhere around 10 in 2 games. One player admitted to me that their team will steal some moves from watching TV.

In each case, the ball had to be released before the pivot re-planted to the floor in the middle of the key, but they weren't. Tweet. ;)

Update using today's games.
 

I have reviewed each spin move that has taken place thus far in the UConn/Mizzou and Nova/Pitt games. I have a DVR and a remote capable of pausing and frame by frame advance in real time.

Four spin moves so far today and each one appears to be a travel. It's pretty easy to spot using this technology, but I have to admit I've always laid off them in HS ball. That may very well change next season.

I've noticed another factor that may be affecting how it's called...the move almost always takes place in heavy traffic. Even the TV cameras are screened pretty well in that it's difficult to see the feet of the spinning player through the whole play.

I think this is the reason it is called the way it is. If you are not sure you do not call it. And you really do not call it in this situation with all the cameras and you are not sure.

Peace