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-   -   backcourt front court violation (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/52240-backcourt-front-court-violation.html)

JugglingReferee Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 587963)
Yes, it is a violation.

A was the last to touch the ball when A2 grabbed the ball in the air, still in the FC.

The play is no different from B1 tipping a pass from FC A1 that deflects off of FC A2 into the BC where A2 recovers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 587970)
Who was the last to touch the ball "before" it got BC status? B1.
It's different than your play since in your play, A2 is the last to touch it before it goes to the BC.
Always listen to bob.

Snaq, I think you're thinking about the case where A2 has already established themselves to be in the BC when they obtain possession of the ball (that has yet to hit the BC).

Adam Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:15am
Consider this play and tell me how it differs, please.

A1 dribbling in BC, loses control and the ball bounces off the leg of B1, standing in the FC, and into the BC where A1 is standing when he picks it up. Is this a violation? Does it matter if A1 is picks it up before it hits the floor in the BC.

edit: I see it now. I don't know what my problem is.

violation

mick Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peach State Ref (Post 587940)
This play got me to thinking about various other scenarios. Play B: A-1 is in the backcourt and passes the ball to A-2. B-1 is standing in the frontcourt and tips the pass into the air near the division line. A-2 jumps from the frontcourt, catches the tipped ball in the air, and lands in the backcourt. Violation or not? Why or why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 587944)
I'd say no because Team A never had team control in the frontcourt. B's player was the last to touch before it went to the backcourt. However, if A caught it before it hit the floor, does it still have frontcourt status until it hits the floor?

I still say no BC violation here.
Rethink this:
Team A never lost team control; they had it in the backcourt and maintained it. B's bat does not change team control
A2 caught the ball while having frontcourt location.

zm1283 Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 587956)
By rule, this is not a violation. The requirements are not met:
1. Team control by A.
2. Ball gains front court status (when tipped by B).
3. A is not the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt.
4. A2 is the first to touch the ball with BC status.

What is missing is that part where team A is the last to touch the ball "before" it gains backcourt status.

The recent NFHS interp, however, essentially states that #3 and #4 can happen at the same time.

Now, if the ball had hit another A player rather than B1 and then bounced into the BC, it's a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick (Post 587982)
Rethink this:
Team A never lost team control; they had it in the backcourt and maintained it. B's bat does not change team control
A2 caught the ball while having frontcourt location.
What do you say to the post above by Snaqwells then?

Adam Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 587992)
What do you say to the post above by Snaqwells then?
I had a different play in my head. Mick's right (see my edited post above), this is a violation. For some reason, I didn't see that A had jumped from the FC, caught the ball, and landed in the BC.

This is always a violation, except in very specific circumstances which do not apply here.

With the play in question, #2 is met when A2 catches the ball with FC status. B1's tip is irrelevant.

zm1283 Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 587994)
I had a different play in my head. Mick's right (see my edited post above), this is a violation. For some reason, I didn't see that A had jumped from the FC, caught the ball, and landed in the BC.

This is always a violation, except in very specific circumstances which do not apply here.

With the play in question, #2 is met when A2 catches the ball with FC status. B1's tip is irrelevant.
You're right. After I read it again and read mick's post, I agree. A's player who caught it in the air was the last to touch in the FC with team control and first to touch in the backcourt. It's a violation.

Adam Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:53am
I'm going to blame the El Paso water and coffee. You can find your own excuse.

Juulie Downs Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 588001)
I'm going to blame the El Paso water and coffee. You can find your own excuse.
You ignored the #1 rule on this board, always listen to Bob!

Adam Fri Mar 13, 2009 01:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 588012)
You ignored the #1 rule on this board, always listen to Bob!
I knew I had it wrong, just couldn't figure it out. I may admit when I'm wrong, but not until I know why. :)

mbyron Fri Mar 13, 2009 04:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 587870)
How is that different than what he said?

"A player's location on the court, when airborne, is determined by the point of departure."

The last place you touched is your point of departure.
An airborne player might touch the floor between jumping and landing, and that player's location would be where he or she last touched the floor, not the point of departure. I've seen it.

bob jenkins Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 588159)
An airborne player might touch the floor between jumping and landing,
Huh?

Adam Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 588159)
An airborne player might touch the floor between jumping and landing, and that player's location would be where he or she last touched the floor, not the point of departure. I've seen it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 588281)
Huh?
I'm with Bob. Once an airborne player touches the floor, he's no longer airborne. If, by some fluke of gravity, he is, then his point of departure has changed.

BktBallRef Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 588159)
An airborne player might touch the floor between jumping and landing, and that player's location would be where he or she last touched the floor, not the point of departure. I've seen it.
A player jumps. That's his point of departure, where he left the floor.

When he next touches the floor, he's landed. He can't land twice.

This ain't the triple jump. :)

mbyron Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:46pm
You're all assuming the player touches the floor with a foot, right? :rolleyes:

Adam Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:50pm
:rolleyes: is right. Once he touches the floor with "anything," he's no longer airborne; but if he touches the floor with a hand and still manages to catch the ball before his feet hit the floor, I'm tempted to let him do whatever he wants with it after that.


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