OT - OSAA gone too PC?
 

There was an article about attendance being down at high school basketball games this year in Oregon and they were wondering if it was due to some new sportsmanship rules.

I believe these changes were in response to a couple of high profile situations last year involving racist taunts which truly have no place anywhere in society let alone athletics.

Personally, I think that the OSAA went too far with some of these. What do you guys/gals think? I have highlighted the ones in red that I don't think are necessarily inappropriate.

I should qualify this by saying I don't think it's inappropriate for the students. I don't think adults should ever act this way at high school sporting events. I was at the girls state tournament last year when the parents from a team jumped up and yelled, "You got swatted!! You got swatted!!!" Maybe that shouldn't bother me but I don't think that's appropriate for 35-40 year olds to yell @ 16 or 17 year old girls.

Below are excerpts from the Oregon School Activities Association outlining new rules for student/adult fan behavior at OSAA events.

Rule 3 – Contests – Sportsmanship – Crowd Control

D. All cheers, comments and actions shall be in direct support of one’s team. No cheers, comments or actions shall be directed at one’s opponent or at contest officials. Some examples of inappropriate conduct or actions that are not permitted are: turning backs, holding up newspapers or jeering at cheerleaders during opposing team introductions; disrespecting players by name, number or position; negative cheers or chants; throwing objects on the floor. “Air Ball! Air Ball!, booing, “You! You! You!, or “You Got Swatted!” are examples of yells that will not encourage a positive atmosphere. (Revised Fall 2008)

Spoil Sports ...
 

Not even toilet paper?

How bout they just eliminate the fans altogether.

That sounds fine to me. (Not really, but that would solve the problem they are trying to fix).

Peace

Let me ask you why you don't believe those specific ones are inappropriate? Is it because you believe that they are positive and friendly? Are they good ways to treat a competing student athlete? Do you believe that an athletic contest provides an environment in which it is okay to jeer and mock your fellow citizens and neighbors simply because they are with the opposing side or are serving as a neutral adjudicator?

Perhaps your view of the Oregon policy is clouded by what has long been accepted in sports and not formed by asking yourself if this is an appropriate way to treat other members of our society.

If the OHAA wants to foster more friendly atmosphere instead of an antagonistic one, I have no problem with that.

For those who will argue that they have gone overboard and are banning a bit of harmless fun, ask yourself why we should feel the need to derive joy from the misfortune of others? Isn't it enough to simply relish in the positive actions and successes of those we favor?

Hey, I would be in violation of the newspaper "rule"! :eek: I read mine during the introductions when I go watch the games, because that is the BORING part of the game! :mad: I'm really there for the action and to see how my brothers and sisters of the stripes manage that action. :)

I read mine during staff meetings. Is that the reason I didn't get a bonus on my last appraisal?

Nevadref,
The question posed was "Have the new sportmanship rules had a negative effect on attendance?"

While your views on society may be true enough, I would say that such rules CLEARLY have an adverse affect on attendance.

Schools that have large student sections do many or all of the things banned in this rule quotation. I am guessing that you, like me, have been out of high school for more years the age of those still in it (i.e. you are more than 36 years old). Kids have many choices today -- more than they had when we were going up. The one thing that hasn't changed is that kids like to have fun. Sometimes having fun is humor at someone else's expense.

I agree that making personal attacks on individual players or ANY type of activity that could be deemed as threatening to a player or a team must be stopped immediately. On the other hand, what harm is there is students turning their backs for the introductions or putting up newspapers. It is done in fun. If us older members of society ban the kids from having fun in one activity, they will merely FIND ANOTHER ACTIVITY resulting in LOWER ATTENDANCE, resulting in less revenue for the sport, resulting in high fees for the players/lower payments for the officials, etc.

Have these regulations gone to far (that was the original question)? I think that they have. Why, because all of these actions are actually completely appropriate and should be ENCOURAGED? NO! I would agree that these actions are less preferred than some other actions. At the same time, I can assure you that when I played, I LOVED playing in front of a full house -- at home and on the road. It got my adrenalin pumping. The same applies to games that I coached and that I officiate.

Remember, it is still an athletic COMPETITION. Part of competition (in athletics and in the rule world) involves trying to beat the other team. As long as the comments do not get PERSONAL, THREATENING, VULGAR, RACIST, SEXIST, RELIGIOUS, etc., I think we better let the kids yell and scream (and HAVE FUN) at athletic contests. If we don't, they will view athletic contests as just one more activity that the adults control and prevent the kids from enjoying. Over time, the 48 people in the stands (the 24 parents plus/minus from each team) will be the only ones at the game.

In essence, what I am suggesting is that I think that we have to decide whether we would rather have a "church-like" crowd with a lower attendance or a more animated crowd that is larger number. I am not saying that we have to put up with the capitalized items in the previous paragraph. But, to make the game more like an extension of the school day, we are bound to have fewer people.

How is turning your back or "reading" the paper during introductions deriving joy from the misfortune of others? :confused:

It's not. It's a dumb policy with non-athletes trying to exert their ideal into a place where it doesn't belong. ;)

I absolutely agree with you. I was asking Nevada though as he seems to be on his high horse about this one;)

Probably...depends on the headline the boss saw! :eek:

Sounds like the politically correct crowd are at it again.

~Sigh~
 

So let me get this straight: The Oregon School Activities Association has generated rules that require schools to model Good Sportsmanship and you are against that.

The OSAA is just following the general philosophy the NFHS that feels that a sporting event is an extension of the classroom and a learning experience for players, coaches, officials and fans.

My, what a terrible thing.

Let the college crowds model what ever they want. High school sports has a totally different direction (intended result) than college or professional sports.

If attendance is down because of this (and there is no data to prove it is or is not) then perhaps it is the correct people that are staying away. I have enjoyed football and basketball games more this year than anytime in the past 10 years.

Tim Christensen

Secretary
Oregon Athletic Officals Association
State Baseball Umpire Committee

Publication Committee Member
National Federation of State High Schools
High School Today

Wreck (oo, not a very good nickname!) -- I suppose they conjectured that these things were "provocations" even if in themselves they may not be all that bad. But it does seem way, way over the top.

I'd rather see them find ways to ENcourage positive cheering and appropriate behavior, rather than just stomp down hard on the bad stuff, or what they see as bad stuff.

I agree that I'm not sure how prohibiting the things you listed will help prevent the kinds of incidents you referred to. Those were indeed ugly and had little to do with turning backs. holding newspapers, etc.

Some of the stuff in that list is mild in comparison to what I heard once at a state tournament game several years ago. Big city school (predominately black-we'll call them school A) playing school from the next big city (predominately white-we'll call them school B). For the sake of identity and obviousness, I'm not even going to mention the gender of the tournament being played. School A starts a chant, something in reference to their players being much quicker and better shooters. I can't remember exact words, but it was a bit of a "we're better than you" kind of attitude to it. School B comes back with a "Who's Your Daddy?" chant with an aristocratic snootiness in the chant. :eek: I never saw so many administrators from a school converge on the student body so fast! :eek:

I think you've exagerated a bit here. WreckRef (no thanks for quoting his actually post, btw) said that some are too far.

Do you really believe that high school athletes are emotionally harmed when their opponents read newspapers instead of listening when opponents are being introduced, or when opponents shoot free throws, etc?

If the OP is true, I think the OSAA is taking the easy route by denying all "reverse cheering" so that they don't have to deal with the possible racial comments made because of this type of cheering.

JMO -
Schools compete for more than just the final score. The spectators want to show more support than the other teams spectators. When the support gets to negative actions, even the "just a little negative" actions, how do you show more support? By doing the same thing (that would be a tie score) or something a little more negative (my teams spectators won). How does this not escalate?

If you remove all the negativity (picture Donald Southerlland in Kelly's Heros as I just did and you will get a laugh), escalation should only harm your ears.
That would be a perfect world, which we don't live in. So, should we allow negativity and just remove that which exceeds the officials limits? Who likes doing that?

It is mush easier to officiate the game while listening to fans cheering for their own team as opposed to thinking "am I going to have to get game admin to remove the bozo in the second row".

I think that is a wonderful point. I have no problem with some razzing as long as it is fun. If behavior goes too far, remove the people that are behaving badly and be done with it. There is a difference between yelling "air ball" than calling someone "ugly" which happen at my game the other night. BTW, that comment was dealt with immediately without anyone having to say a word to the administration.

Peace

Unfortunately you are reading only what you want to read, not what I actually said as well as saying I said things that I did not say.

I never said I am against good sportsmanship but somehow you attack me by saying that I am. I have coached multiple youth sports for over 10 years, officiated multiple sports for 20 years and played sports my entire life. As a coach I always taught good sportsmanship, win or lose. As an official, there have been VERY FEW instances where I thought the crowd was acting inappropriately.

To be honest with you, I have found that the bigger problem with behavior comes from the adults in the stands, not the students.

Bottom line is I think the OSAA has gone too far. The new policy is a response to very ugly and inappropriate incidents that happened last year. Those types of incidents don't belong in society, PERIOD. Unfortunately the response is punishing/banning things that I do not see as being more than students behaving like students.

~Sigh~
 

Please show me were I "attacked" you.

Let me see I "exagerated" just where? I tried to explain the reasoning behind the OSAA ruling. Nothing more.

I agree with the rules and that, somehow, makes me the bad guy.

Go figger . . .

This feels like you're accusing him of promoting bad sportsmanship and attacking him. Especially the part about him being against your interp of the new rules.

I agree with Wreck, that the OSAA has gone way, way too far. And I think they'd get a LOT better results if they'd spend their time and energy actively including good things, instead of excluding everything that even looks like it might be a problem somewhere to someone.

Like all "moral" judgments, no matter where the line is drawn, some will say it's too severe and some will complain it's too lax.

And that is why you cannot legislate morality for only moral reasons. It would be better if they just made a statement about negative behavior than trying to single out specific actions that are often harmless. As said before, the most inappropriate comments I hear are from parents. You would think the parents are going to fight by the things they say and the way they behave. Kids tend to be much more lighthearted and fun.

Peace

Every single basketball ref I've talked to thinks it's ridiculous and way overly officious. Thanks OSAA - way to take a whole bunch of the fun out of going to basketball games for the entire student body. I'm sure they'll find something much more entertaining to do while they're not having good, clean fun at the games on Friday nights. :rolleyes:

I think they are using too broad of a sword to try to eliminate a problem. Like I have said all along, the problems they are trying to eliminate (racism, etc.) do not belong in society, PERIOD, let alone sports. I just think they are taking it too far and eliminating what is harmless fun for the student body. I mean, really, is a player emotionally ruined for life if a student from the opposing section yells, "Air ball!!!" at him/her after he/she throws up an air ball?

I know that if these were the rules when I was in high school I probably wouldn't have gone to any basketball games.

When I was an athlete in high school I had a couple of racist slurs thrown my way (I'm a minority.) While they didn't bother me because I just chalked it up to stupidity, I do see how it could bother others and I definitely believe it has no place in sports. It just seems like they are punishing the overwhelming majority who attend the games and want to have fun with these new rules.

Disclaimer: This is all JMHO.

I read "Chicks and Ammo" (credit to Robin Williams). BTW - when I was in HS (back in the dark ages) and an opponent was going to shoot a FT, we would chant "SEE THAT BASKET, SEE THAT BALL, C'MON STUPID, HIT THE WALL". We were never chastised for it or anything else. Sometimes we would get really nasty, especially during playoffs.

Now if I heard this, I would miss because I would be laughing so hard. On a side note, I didn't play basketball in high school, I played soccer.

I always had the opposing fans riding me because I usually marked (defended for you basketball only people) their best player. The more they booed and yelled at me, the harder and better it made me play, I loved it and fed off of it. One time I tackled a teams best player (legally) right in front of the student body, they screamed bloody murder to no avail, I got up and took a bow. They really loved me after that. :D

Did a game last season - Girl's Varsity - where the home team fans in the first half chanted "Bounce, bounce, bounce" every time the point guard dribbled the ball, and screamed "Whoaaaaaaaaaaa" every time the "star" player had the ball in her hands, ala the "Cameron Crazies"...as the AD was letting us into the locker room at half, he told us he would "take care of that stuff"!! I asked him "Why?" and he felt that it was not "proper sporting behavior". So he made them stop.

Whatever.:rolleyes:

~Sigh~
 

It is not "my" interp . . . it is the interpretation of the OSAA as given by Cindy Simmons (Assistant Executive Director of the OSAA) at the State Baseball Commissioners meeting.

Regards,

Agreed. I don't see anything wrong with this. We did the, "Bounce, bounce, bounce, pass, pass, shot!" thing in high school as well as the old favorite, "Air ball!! Air ball!!"

We also used to yell, "Boring... boring... boring!" Unfortunately that was at our own team because we had Norman Dale for a head coach.

http://www.depauw.edu/photos/PhotoDB...rs-301x210.jpg

And Nebraska basketball fans would chant that back in the Moe Iba days. Ahhh...the days gone by....

So this would probably be frowned upon in OR.

That is funny. :D

Peace

A picture of a guy in women's clothing? Nuh-uh. Just ask the Portland mayor. :p

Ooo! Oooo! I wanna say it!

"Always listen to Bob........."

Tim,
First question: When you go to games, do you go as an observer or as a fan?

Whether you want to admit is or not, the OSAA has taken things further than the NFHS Rules indicate.

I have played sports since the early 1960s, coached sports since the mid 1970s and first officiated in the late 80s. I have been an Athletic Director, Athletic Board President, League Commissioner, Referee Assignor, Referee Mentor, Referee Assessor, Club Director, etc. during the past 20+ years. I think that I have always taught my players to play the right way including utilizing good sportsmanship at all times.

My personal opinion is that the OSAA has gone too far with some of these regulations. You have the right to disagree with my view, just as I have the right to disagree with yours. For gosh sakes, if kids can't have some fun at the games they are likely to find something else to do. I know, I know, kids can have fun by just cheering their own team. I am sure that is your opinion. That is fine. I just happen to disagree.

We have some very clever "Student Sections" in Central Ohio. Yes, they do the basic "Air Ball", etc. But, they also come up with some very interesting cheers as well. "You can't do that", "fundamentals", and many other catchy cheers do not cause harm to the game or the team in my opinion (don't officials actually tell the players "they can't do that" when they commit a foul or "fundamentally, you cannot take four steps while holding the ball"?).

There are some aspects of these rules that may make sense. But, I just think that some of them have gone too far.

As the distinguished Bob Jenkins accurately stated:

I love the "He's a Freshman" clap, clap, clapclapclap.

Or the "Just like Football" only to have the team that won in football lose in the playoffs. That was rather funny last night.

Peace

And when I was in HS, we had both of those directed at us! Our "freshman" turned the naysayers off by drilling 5 straight 3-pointers and quieting them down.

The football one, we were down and had a furious rally, and pulled it off in the last few seconds. We came back at the buzzer with "Not Like Football"! Whoo! :D

And this from the board's harshest critic of political correctness!

A couple of years ago, InHD (no longer around) broadcast one of games from my old high school because they had a nationally recognized player. He dominated the game and the opposing students started chanting, "One man team!!" The students from my old high school responded with, "No man team!!!" I thought it was a clever comeback.

~Sigh~
 

Mbyron wrote:

Obviously we disagree but please don't make my decisions for me.

You think this is a politically correct issue whereas I think it is trying to teach "the right thing."

Regards,

Isn't this the crux of the issue - legislating vs. teaching?

Isn't the governing body (OSAA) is trying to make the decision for you as what is acceptable and what is not? Why can't the school, teacher, coach and/or parent decide this for themselves, considering they have the direct contact with the sudent and the behavior, instead of that decision being made for them by someone that has no direct contact with any of the individuals involved?

M&m
 

What seems to be lost here is a definition of WHO the OSAA is:

The OSAA is made up of representative educators, superintendents, principals, coaches, teachers, and school board members.

The "OSAA" does not establish rules they are simply the independent organization that keeps the voluntary member schools in line.

It would be my view that the new "sportsmanship rules" were established by the exact people that you have mentioned in your post.

Regards,

Tim, is it a governing body with punitive authority? If so, it doens't matter how if it's democratically elected or the members are assigned by God in this case, as Joe the Principal at Average High School in Smallville, OR, can't make this decision and he has to follow the rules set forth by the OSAA. As you say, they "keep the voluntary member schools in line."

If that's the case, then why don't all the individual schools already have those rules in place?

And, you did leave out one very important person that is not included in the OSAA - the parent. And, isn't that who is ultimately responsible for teaching behavior?

I guess I feel legislation should be used for what the vast majority agrees upon. In this case, (as is the case many times), a select few determines how many should act, without a clear consensus. There is, for example, a clear consensus on racial comments. That is fine to legislate. There is not a clear consensus that reading a newspaper during player introductions is bad behavior. Therefore, that behavior should be left up to the individuals directly involved, not a quasi-governing body who quite probably has never even set foot anywhere near the school involved.

Doesn't matter - they didn't make the playoffs this year.

How do you not make the playoffs with Superman on your team?

Just ask how Michael Jordan did before he got a supporting cast.

"One Man Team."

Tim,
You indicated that the OSAA does not establish rules. Who established the new "sportsmanship rules" that the OSAA seems to be enforcing? I am guessing that it was not the owners of the Oregonian or any other newspaper -- this new rule has to hurt sales:D.

Speaking of the Oregonian. Check out this link: The Oregonian newspaper: Oregon News - OregonLive.com

I can only guess that the elementary students were all taken to the principal's office for disrespectfully covering their eyes before the "Cat" appeared.

Maybe the surprise wasn't the Cat himself, but the Grinch! :eek:

Ref Ump,
I am sure that the Grinch has long been banned from Oregon member schools. After all, the Grinch has a negative attitude toward things. ;)

Sam I Am!!!
 

Or maybe they ate Green Eggs and Ham.

Peace

I did not state an opinion, so I don't know the basis for your conclusion that we disagree.

I linked your remarks to the thread title. I did not thereby endorse the OP's standpoint.

~Sigh~
 

I do not know how other states work but in Oregon parents have no say in what is taught in the classroom. If the sporting event is an extension of the classroom then there would be little to no interface with parents.



The member schools under the OSAA title brought the concerns to the Executive Committee of the OSAA. This committee reports to the delegate assembly of all high schools (in Oregon both Private and Public Schools operate under one umbrella for sports, band and debate type activities) therefore the schools thought the problem needed addressing.

Yes, the OSAA is the only punitive operation under Oregon Department of Higher Education. The OSAA has the ability to fine, suspend or otherwise penalize schools for violation of rules established by the General Assembly of Oregon State High Schools.

Regards,

No, OMSI is not a member of the OSAA. I know, because I used to work there. Really.

For those of you from outside the Northwest, OMSI is the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry.

So, your statement, "The "OSAA" does not establish rules they are simply the independent organization that keeps the voluntary member schools in line," appears to be false.

If the "OSAA" didn't estalish the rules, who did? Santa?

~longer sigh~
 

And you missed my point entirely - who is the ultimate teacher of what is right and wrong? Isn't it the parent? Who should be most responsible for instilling values in the kids? The parents, right? Granted, in today's society, sometimes parents aren't around, or don't do their job, but then that responsibility falls on the next in line - the teachers and administrators. Why should some group that, you admit, has no contact whatsoever with parents, be responsible for telling kids what is and isn't morally acceptable?

But if <B>the schools themselves</B> thought there was a problem, how come <B>the schools themselves</B> aren't doing something to fix it? Are <B>the schools themselves</B> powerless to control what happens in their own gyms? Or is it more likely a few (the Executive Committee) feel they need to impose their view of morality unto the majority?

I guess I am dense (I really mean that BTW) -- the SCHOOLS did try to fix the problem. They did it be going to the "process" that coordinates "fix" it statewide.

Rather than having the process leave things to independant schools the Executive Board (i.e. school "people") went to the General Assembly of the OSAA to make a "rule". That august group selected the wording and asked the OSAA to sheriff the penalty.

I cannot explain this any better.

The schools under the OSAA selected to have the rule written.

The opinion if the rules went too far are really not germane . . . the schools wanted an organized effort to clean up as issue that they thought was failed.

It is obvious I am not the correct person to explain the process and for that I apologize.

Regards,