Requirement or Courtesy?
 

In a recent thread someone made a comment that it is the officials duty to inform coaches when they have taken their last available time out. I often do this, but did not realize it was required. Or is it required? Please refer me to where this is indicated.

Go to Rule 2 (both NFHS and NCAA) and in the Section titled Scorer's Duties, you will find the requirement.

MTD, Sr.

It's also a requirement in NCAA.

It is more of a courtesy from an official's point of view, because nowadays, the coaches already know their timeout status. This is not something that officials are required alone and if you are not informed than it is not your job to go out of your way to find out.

Peace

I don't understand what you are saying...we are not required? What does the rule book say below?

ART. 6 . . .

Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and

when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is
granted its final allotted charged time-out.

He saying if the table doesn't notify him then he's not going to solicit the info.

Yep.

Peace

Don't leave any room for doubt. BE aware of things like the arrow, and how many timeouts are remaining, and even if a coach knows how many timeouts he has left, or if you think he knows how many timeouts, still do the job you're instructed to do: inform the coaches when they have zero timeouts remaining. mick posted the text. It says "shall", and not "more of a courtesy".

Having said that, if you fail to use this mechanic, and an excessive timeouts is granted, it is still completed at the cost of a T.

Rut,
I prefer to let them know in accordance with the guidance.
Like not noticing a team having 6 players on the floor is my fault, not notifying [I think] would also be my fault. :)

I do not think it is my fault if coaches do not know how many timeouts they have. I think that is their responsibility like it is their responsibility to not have 6 on the court. At least the 6 on the court is something we have something to do with because we put the ball in play. Coaches have 8 assistants and one of them is usually keeping track of their timeouts. Actually when I ask coaches what kind of timeout they have, they usually tell me what they are left with. I have never bought that this is essential or the world is going to end if I do not tell a coach he is out or worse, how many timeouts they have left.

Peace

Timeout!!
 

I would say the last 5 minutes of the game as an official, you MUST know how many timeout each time has. Coach A calls timeout with 2:45 to go in the game. You report the TO to the scoretable. Then a good book-keeper will raise his/her hands indicating the # of TO's left for each team. 2-2, 2-1, 2-0, 4-2.

Then you tell both coaches, or an assistant, "Hey coach you have 2 timeouts left." Just to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Also make sure you tell your partner/s.

Now most of the newer scoreboards indicate TOL (time outs left) Which makes it really easy.

Along the lines of TO's. At the end of a close game, be aware of when a coach is going to want that Timeout (after a made basket, when they are trapped.) There is nothing worse than having a coach jumping up and down for a TO and the officials miss it. With a 3-person crew you have a T or C near the benches so that helps.

Figures. :rolleyes:

That's a negative GhostRider. I have no problem with you keeping abreast of such information but it is most definitely not our job, responsibiilty, nor good practice to inform teams that they have ## times-out remaining.

And, for all you sub-V/JV officials out there just starting out and/or doing Rec Ball, CYO, 5th and 6th graders or whatever, you are going to have to decide how you want to handle this yourself.

We have discussed what the rule book says, some interpretations, and interesting chat. As with other posts, you should take these and other scenarios and discussions and put it in your "kit bag" for those times where - there is no TOL on the scoreboard, the scorekeeper doesn't voluntarily tell you or show you, an F coach or volunteer dad doesn't have 8 assistants, the books disagree, teenagers are novices and doing their best and forget to record one, etc.

Just my $.02 for the rookies, newbies, and junior leagues (like I sometimes officiate).

Are we supposed to tell them the foul differential and 3 point percentage too? ;)

Peace

In NCAA it is required. In the high school games I do, the Board I belong to has declared that we do NOT inform the coaches. The rationale is due to a state tournament situation a couple of years ago where the official scorer provided the wrong info to an official and subsequently, a "T" ended up being given later on when the Coach requested and was granted his last timeout when in fact he didn't have any left. After that, our Board's executive committee decided that our officials were not to notify the coach how many timeouts he/she had left.

Walter, there is no requirement in either the FED or NCAA to notify coaches how many T-O's they have remaining. The requirement is to inform coaches when their team has 0 (zero) remaining; that goes for both rules sets.

And it is not the requirement that the official inform the coaches, it is a requirement that the scorer do so through the official. So we are not going looking for this information or leave our positions to give that information.

I really do not know why this is such a hard thing to understand. It is one thing to follow the rule, but to take it to another level is silly.

Peace

We wouldn't want to do a little preventive officiating.

This point is debatable.

What are you preventing?

If they call a timeout and they do not have one I am giving a T.

Peace

Common sense would tell us that a coach will be more aware of something if an official tells him. So, by increasing the chance that a coach will not unknowingly request an excessive timeout, you are improving the game from the game management point of view.

His/Her timeout-tracking process might have not recorded a TO request, for example.

Do you really want to have your game end with a technical foul for calling too many timeouts?

At times you have some very good points in your posts and then other times IMO you go way out into leftfield.

I agree with both JR's as they both have valid points.

The rules state that the table is supposed to notify the coaches through the officials so if they don't notify us when the team uses its final TO, it's not our job to go find this information out. I definitely see this in the case of upper levels where there are 1 or multiple assistant coaches.

However, I agree with the other JR that it is preventive officiating and good game management at lower levels where the coach usually doesn't have an assistant or they are just parents volunteering.

Hey, save the baseball references for the baseball thread. (Espcially since the first spring training games are today...whoo hoo!)

Anyway, he isn't in left field on this one. Look again at 2-11-6. It is the <B>scorer's</B> responsibility to notify the coaches (through the officials) they have taken their last TO. It is not the official's job to notify the coaches. Yes, we can know this information. Yes, we can relay this information when the scorer tells us. Yes, we can do it as a courtesy. But it is not our <B>job</B> to tell coaches how many TO's they have left. It is also not our job to prevent calling a T for an excessive TO request when it happens. If a team or coach requests too many TO's, it is possible they might still want one knowing they have requested too many.

It is the timer's job to start and stop the clock. But we observe the clock and have a count to help the situation if he fails to do so correctly.

Right - that's covered in the rules.

Where is it in the rules that it is the official's job to notify coachs the number of TO's they have left?

Reasonably inferred from 2-11-6, for when the last timeout is taken (zero is a number):

ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

I thought it was decided that it wasn't our job to notify coaches of how many TO's they had left. I believe the debate was if the table failed to notify us the coach had used his/her final TO if we would go searching for this info.

Again, at higher levels I wouldn't. However, at lower levels where you have all volunteers coaching with no assistants or volunteer assistants and untrained volunteers at the scorers table I would. Let me clarify that this is a COURTESY, not a requirement. I still believe that if the scorers table does not inform us we are not required to inform the coach. We cannot supply information that was not given to us and the rules do not state that we are supposed to seek this information out.

Where is it specified in the rules to have a count just for the purpose of correcting a timing error?

Just curious, what is Rule 2, Section 11 labeled?

What would you say to a coach who, up by one point with 5 seconds on the clock, loudly asks, "Why didn't you tell me that I had no time-outs left?!!"

Why open up that possibility? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/tr...smiley-056.gif

5-10-2

What would you say to a coach, who after he tells a player to foul, and finds out that was that player's 5th foul, "Why didn't you tell me that player had 4 fouls?!?"

Well it is common for me to deal with multiple assistant coaches. And with that reality in my life of officiating, coaches already know their status. They do not find God because an official told them.

What is so bad with having a Technical foul for this as opposed for anything else? Are you not going to call one that is requested?

Funny you say this conversation I have not ever had a major debate with anyone about this in my real world as I have on this site or the internet. Actually this happen in a camp game where I was not working and some pretty high up people took a similar position that I am here and the sky did not fall. I do not really understand why this is off the wall when people that I have worked with in high school and college from multiple states do not seem to have your position on this issue. And I can tell you that most I come in contact with are probably more indifferent than I am on this issue. I guess you will just have to learn to deal with people that disagree with you better. ;)

Peace

2-11-6 says notify coach through official, nowhere does it say official is to go get this information.

Can we all agree that the SCORER is responsible for informing the coach, through the official when they have taken their final TO?

So if it's the scorer's responsibility to tell the official and they do not inform the official, it is a courtesy if the official finds out this information on their own to tell a coach (recommended at lower levels with unpaid volunteers coaching and at scorers table.) Nowhere does it say we are REQUIRED to do this or ever tell a coach how many TO's they have remaining.

.....an officials count.......may be used.......

This means a 5 second count, a 10 second count, whatever you might have had going. I don't see it listed under officials duties to have the timers back, but most consider it wise, or even essential, to do so.

Walter:

The NFHS Rules Book states:

Rule 2, Section 11, Scorer’s Duties
The scorer shall:
ART. 6 . . . Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.


And the NCAA Rules Book states:

Rule 2, Section 7. Officials’ Duties
During the game, officials shall:
Art. 15. Notify a team and its head coach when a team takes its final
allowable charged timeout.

Rule 2, Section 9. Duties of Scorers
The scorers shall:
Art. 9. Record the timeouts charged to each team and notify an official when
such team takes its final allowable charged timeout.


The situation at the state tournament that you describe is not any different than when the officials fail to awarded an one-and-one bonus free throws because the Scorer did not tell them that the offending team had just committed its seventh team foul of the half. Correctable errors are errors made by the game officials. The officials are supposed to notify the HC when his team has used its last timeout, but that does not mean the team does not get charged with a TF for requesting an excess time-out.

Therefore, one could take the position that officials should NOT inform a team of how many time-outs it has remaining. BUT, the rules state quite clearly that the officials MUST inform the HC when his team has used its final time-out.

MTD, Sr.

Isn't this situation covered in the mechanics manual?

Does the Fed not say that an official is to inform a coach when they have zero timeouts remaining? Why do you choose to not follow that mechanic? What other mechanics do you not follow? And why?

If the scorer doesn't inform us, I agree that logically we don't need to inform the coach. However, I recognize that scorekeepers often don't have the same mindset as officials do.

IMHO, the Fed has said that their wish is that coaches are informed when their last timeout was taken. The process they implemented is well-documented. I think the Fed would rather officials ask or be aware of remaining TOs than to say "we didn't know" after the fact.

Whatever...A player getting his 5th foul do not result in 2 points and the ball out of bounds!

I have said this before and I will say this again. The NF's position on any mechanics are they are not absolutes and do not need to be followed if a state, jurisdiction or association does not want to follow them. And that did not come from me that came from Mary Struckoff herself when I asked her this issue directly. The NF Manual is to give a guideline so there is some uniformity, but they know that states, organizations or boards do not follow them and they do not try to tell states how to use mechanics. Just like the NF cannot tell states how to license officials or train officials, they cannot tell states what they want their officials to do as it relates to everything from what they wear to what mechanics they use or do not use.

I do not know where you have received your information but I have never read anything that has asked officials to "find out" what the timeout situation is with teams. I have never seen any such thing suggested. All we have is a rule that is in my opinion is purposely vague. I do not see any penalty for us doing this or not doing this other than maybe someone that evaluates you to get upset about this. I have yet to find an evaluator/assignor care that much if at all.

Peace

So. :rolleyes:

And a coach can count, because it is certainly true they do not allow their players to request timeouts anymore. If this is something you are worried about, be my guest. I have never worried about this and it has not hurt me at all at any level. ;)

Peace

Some story about a pot and a kettle comes to mind. Details escape me.

No, I actually have no problem disagreeing with people. I do not even take it personally (like some). There is nothing you or anyone is going to say to me that will change my basic position on this or other issues. If I did worried about disagreeing with people, then I would have never stated my opinion early on in this thread. It is kind of hard to accuse someone of worrying about disagreement when that very person was the first person in this thread to display disagreement. I could have taken the easy road and said nothing.

Then again I do not take these conversations as being that deep. :cool:

Peace

is this another one of those dead horses that we keep beating?

No, I'd prefer the game ended without it, just the same as I'd prefer not having to issue T to coach running on the floor, a player dropping an F bomb, a fight, an intentional foul, etc. to end a game. Do you let coaches know how many fouls are on each player should he decide to foul in last minute of a tight game and doesn't want to lose his point guard? Do you advise him with only .02 seconds he can't catch and shoot?

It's just not our job to keep track of their timeouts, plain and simple. If you prefer to assist coaches, go for it.

I've never had a coach ask me how many timeouts they have left. Why, because they know it's not my responsibility.

Agreed, this horse is shot, dead and now glue. Next topic please. :D

Since the table crew is considered part of the officiating crew, I took care of the rest and highlighted my answer. :)

Maybe many officials still operate under the assumption it is their duty to inform the coaches, and perhaps many coaches still operate under the assumption that the officials have to give them this information. If it is widely done that way in your area, then, of course, you do not want to be the maverick that does it differently.

But, as Mark pointed out, having the official inform the coach is only required under NCAA rules; it is part of the scorer's duties under NFHS rules. It seems as though this falls under the same category as counting players before putting the ball in play. If a team has too many players on the court, we might be able to prevent it if we have the chance, but it is not <B>our fault</B> if it needs to be penalized. The same way it not <B>our fault</B> if a player fouls out and we didn't tell the coach that player had 4 fouls before then...

Is it so hard as you go over to get the team out of a timeout to just "remind" the coach that he has 1 or 0 timeouts left? I do not think so.

Uh Coach, .... now you have 15 seconds to replace him. :)

Correct, good clarification. thanks.

No one said it was hard. There are just people that feel life is not going to hell in a hand basket if it is not done. There are a lot of things we do as officials that are required and there are many things we do that are required. I do not see this as an essential part of my job and no one I have ever come in contact with really cares about this other than people on this site. And if the coaches I deal with do not seem to put me with this kind of ultimate responsibility, I certainly am not going to care if I give a T for telling them or not. BTW, if a request for a timeout is made, I am giving the T no matter how they find out. I am not looking the other way. And I am certainly not getting upset if this happens. Just because you tell a coach something, does not mean a player will not have a brain fart and still request a timeout.

Peace

In a close game, during a TO, I check with the scorer how many TO's each team has and inform the coaches, usually an asst. coach on the outside of the huddle.

I have no problem considering this a good thing to do. I guess I am not as "officious" and hard-headed as some officials. :)

You're missing the point, and as I stated, if you like to provide this service to coaches, terrific.

That said, if I'm at the table and table says he's out, I may or may not tell coach if he's out. I'd rather not and have never discussed not doing it with partners should they choose to do so.

"officious" and hard-headed as some officials"

Not really, I just prefer not to do it, it's not necessary.

You are only hard-headed if you are being asked to do something and you refuse. I have never been asked to do this, so I guess I did not have a choice to refuse. ;)

Peace

In many other sports, it's either required or a good practice to inform the coach of the number of timeouts used / remaining.

It should, imo, be the same in basketball (and I read the rule as it alreadybeing required, but to the extent the wording is "confusing" it should be clarified).

It's a mechanic though, so failure to do so doesn't relieve the coach from the ultimate responsibility.

M&M:

Red Question: What information do you mean? That the team has no more "free" timeouts left, or the number of "free" timeouts the team has left?

Blue Statement: With regard to informing a team that it does not have any more "free" timeouts left, the duties of the Officials and the Scorer are the same under both NFHS and NCAA Rules. The Article (NFHS R2-S11-A6 and NCAA R2-S9-A9) pertaining to the Scorer's duties pre-dates the NHFS and NCAA Rules Committees, going back to the days of the National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada. NCAA R2-S7-A15 was added as a clarification to accompany NCAA R2-S9-A9.

The fact is that it has always (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been an Official's duty to inform a team when it has used its last "free" timeout. And that the only way that this can be done is when the Scorer notifies an Official that a team has used its last "free" timeout.

MTD, Sr.

I've gotten the impression it is the number of TO's left (3, 2, 1), rather than simply they have used their last "free" TO.

Actually, I thought they read differently. First of all, in both rule sets, the scorer and timer <B>are</B> officials, or more specifically, part of the officiating crew. That's why their duties are listed in the same section. In NFHS, the floor officials' duties are listed in 2-4 thru 2-10, and the scorer's duties are listed in 2-11. The only place notification of TO's is listed is under 2-11-6. If it was specifically a floor official's duty, it would also be listed somewhere in 2-4 thru 2-10. However, as you pointed out, in NCAA rules it is listed under the floor official's duties, as well as the scorer's duties, that the officials shall notify a coach when they have taken their last allowable TO. So there is a difference between the two rule sets.

So, when the scorer tells me a team has used their last allotted TO, I will tell the coach. If they tell me the team has one full and one 30 left, I'll say thank you, and probably even relay that info to my partner(s). That's info that is good for the crew to know; perhaps we need to watch for a request in a tight situation. But I will not tell the coach that info. To me, that's no different than telling a coach two of his players have 4 fouls. That borders on me "coaching", or giving them information they are responsible for knowing. What if I give them wrong information? That is between the scorer and the coach, and our only responsibility in either instance is to let them know when they have none left.

Why would you not inform the coach. The rule says it is our responsibility to do so once the table notifies us.


Why would you tell a coach he/she has 1 time-out remaining? How is that preventive officiating? What purpose does it serve?

M&M:

Go back and read Rule 2 in both the NCAA and NFHS rules books. The word "Official(s)" is used it is to denote the R and U or R, U1 and U2; it is not used to denote the Scorer and the Timer. You have missed my point: Both NCAA and NFHS Rules specifically state that the Scorer shall notify a team when it has used its last timeout, and that the Scorer shall do this by notifying an Official who shall then notify the team. The NFHS calls this out in R2-S11-A6, while the NCAA calls this out in R2-S7-A15 and R2-S9-A9. Sometime after the NBCUSC split into the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, the NCAA split NFHS R2-S11-A6 into NCAA R2-S7-A15 and R2-S9-A9, but the results are the same.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I certainly don't want you to invoke the ghost of J. Dallas Shirley to chase me around, but I will ask you to go look at the very start of Rule 2 in both codes. In NFHS, 2-1 denotes both the "Game and Table Officials". In NCAA, Rule 2-1 is labeled, "The Officials", and Sec. 3 under that rule states "The scorers, timers, and shot clock operator shall be located at the scorers' table at courtside." So, clearly both rule sets include the table personnel as "officials".

I don't think I've disagreed with this point; in fact, I agree. However, I was simply pointing out a slight difference in the two rule sets, in that in NFHS, under the specific duties listed for the floor officials (2-4 thru 2-10), there is no mention of the TO notification. The only mention is under the Scorer's duties, 2-11, where the the scorer is required to notify the coach through an official. However, under NCAA rules, it is listed both under the floor officials' duties (2-7-15), as well as under the scorer's duties (2-9-9).

So, if we wanted to be really picky, the only difference would be in NFHS, if the scorer did not notify the official about the team using their last allotted TO, the official would not have to notify the team. In NCAA, it appears the official would still need to notify the team, even if the table didn't inform them. In both cases, however, we agree that if the table notifies the official, the official then notifies the team.

My point in this whole discussion is I disagree with those who want to tell the coach they still have one full and one 30 left (or any other amount other than they've used their last one). Unless, of course, that is how it is commonly done in their area, and coaches and officials both come to view this as common practice.

M&M:

We are on the same page. We both agree that the Officials (R, U, U1, and U2) should not be telling a team how many timeouts it has left. No we need to get on the same paragraph. The Scorer and the Timer are part of the officiating crew, but the word "Official(s)" mean: R, U, U1, and U2. Once again go back and read Rule 2 in both codes.

MTD, Sr.

Good. I was starting to shudder at the thought of J. Dallas Shirley haunting my evenings. :eek:

Well, we are probably parsing symantics; we'll need to have mbyron officiate this one. I agree the scorers and timers are separate from the floor officials, but they are listed in NFHS under the rule entitled "<font color=red>Officials</font color> and Their Duties", and they are referred to as "Table <font color=red>Officials</font color>". They are also separate from the "Game Officials". In NCAA, they are also covered under the same Rule heading: "<font color=red>Officials</font color> and Their Duties", and they are listed under the section entitled: "<font color=red>The Officials</font color>". It seems pretty clear to me they want these people to be considered officials, if only to make sure they are as unbiased and neutral as the floor officials.

Thanks Mary, I'll now improvise mechanics!!
 

I am pleased to know that using standard signs are optional. I have several that I have invented all by myself that I am dying to use, and now I see that the editor of the rule book has decreed that the mechanics are optional.

Question: Does this mean she can use her editorial fiat in other areas and change substantive playing rules as well? What if she decreed that it would henceforth be a foul to go "over the back?" Apparently she has more power than the rules committee...

You obviously did not read what I said. I said that if a state wants to dictate their officials use mechanics (which BTW are much more than signals), is their right to do so. There are several examples across this country where states want their officials to do very specific things that do not follow the NF Manuals. I did not even mention signals, I mentioned mechanics. Things like where you stand, when you stand there, who moves after a foul, who has the last second shot and how you can hand the ball on the end line. Considering that the NF Manual is often incomplete or not specific, states have to fill in the blanks or change what they feel is necessary. I am going to take her word for it that she is speaking for expectations of the committee (considering she actually works for the NF and most committee members do not) and that she knows a little more about how this works than you or I do. I do know in my state our state decided not to use many of the mechanics in two other sports I work and my state is considered 100% compliance state. And there are some major things my state wants us to do that only reviewing the NF Manuals would be confusing.

Peace

Interesting that Mary would say this in light of the following:

2008-09 Points of Emphasis

5. Officials Mechanics and Signals. Communication and consistency remain the most important elements of good officiating. It is essential for officials to be familiar and comfortable with proper NFHS mechanics and signals. .........................................

Approved NFHS signals are dignified, informative and meaningful. The use of unauthorized signals frequently confuses, because the meaning is unknown.

You do need to understand the context of her statement. All Mary is saying is a <B>state or governing body</B> can change certain mechanics if they feel it is better suited to what that state wants to accomplish. What is not acceptable in either case is for an <B>official</B> to deviate from what that governing body says are the proper mechanincs.

What go you expect the NFHS to say?

"The mechanics are frequently redundant, look goofy, and, frankly, they suck."

The NFHS telling me the NFHS's mechanics are anything other than what they made up makes me laugh.

LOL!!!

Peace

I expect them to say what they said. What I don't expect is for the editor of their book to say anything to the contrary.

She was not talking about basketball. And my direct question to her was not about basketball either. She was speaking as a NF employee and the powers and ability of the NF. The NF is not all powerful and knowing unlike what some want to think.

Peace

Your blasphemy is noted and reported; and will be dealt with appropriately.