So, how'd you like a game to start like THIS?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While I understand your logic, I'm not sure it can be fully supported by rule. In Rich's scenario, it was clearly one of the last players introduced. However, (I'm assuming) the team was on the floor, ready to play; it's just that the custodians were holding the game up trying to clean the floor.

So whack the custodians.

But seriously: would they be delaying the game if not for the kid's antics? The kid clearly caused the cause of the delay, and thus caused the delay.

I'd lose no sleep over a T here.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

So whack the custodians.

So, do the mops shoot the FT's? And which bucket do they shoot at?

Originally Posted by mbyron

But seriously: would they be delaying the game if not for the kid's antics? The kid clearly caused the cause of the delay, and thus caused the delay.

I'd lose no sleep over a T here.

Anyway, while I may not lose much sleep if you were to call the T, I would try to talk you out of it initially and try to talk you into a delay warning instead. How is it significantly different than delaying the game because they had to wipe up spilled water off the floor? Sure, you can say it took significantly longer to wipe up the powder, but I don't see any time limit in the delay provisions that say after a certain amount of time for cleanup, go directly to a T rather than giving the warning.

The advantage to the warning is now that team will get the T for any other delay for the rest of the game.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, do the mops shoot the FT's? And which bucket do they shoot at?


Anyway, while I may not lose much sleep if you were to call the T, I would try to talk you out of it initially and try to talk you into a delay warning instead. How is it significantly different than delaying the game because they had to wipe up spilled water off the floor? Sure, you can say it took significantly longer to wipe up the powder, but I don't see any time limit in the delay provisions that say after a certain amount of time for cleanup, go directly to a T rather than giving the warning.

The advantage to the warning is now that team will get the T for any other delay for the rest of the game.

The action did cause a delay - but not a minute or two to towel up some water - they actually had to move to a different court. Not the same thing IMHO. WHACK!!!! As stated before they did it to draw attention to themselves and get a "yay John" from the fans. It was unsporting.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

The action did cause a delay - but not a minute or two to towel up some water - they actually had to move to a different court. Not the same thing IMHO. WHACK!!!! As stated before they did it to draw attention to themselves and get a "yay John" from the fans. It was unsporting.

Alright, let me ask you this - let's say the floor has a new finish put on it, and there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot. It takes more than a minute or two to try and dry it up, but they figure it's safer to move the game to a different court. Is that also a T, instead of a warning? If so, is it Team Technical, or is it charged to the individual? Is it an indirect to the head coach?

I guess I'm only arguing the reason for the T. If you say the T is because the game was delayed excessively, I would argue against that because there is no time limit mentioned in the rules. If you want to give the T directly to the player for unsporting conduct, I would feel more comfortable with that solution.

[chartrusepengui]

my initial judgement was that the action was unsporting. But I would T in either case (delay or sporting) The last scenario you posted with new finish and water is not the same. One is accidental - the other was done on purpose - knowing there would need to be a clean up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

my initial judgement was that the action was unsporting. But I would T in either case (delay or sporting) The last scenario you posted with new finish and water is not the same. One is accidental - the other was done on purpose - knowing there would need to be a clean up.

Do they spend time cleaning up after LeBron? Does LeBron's powder-clap delay the start of his games? If not, how can you say this player knew there would need to be a clean up? Had this player done it before and delayed the start of other games? Had he done it before without any issues? Or is this the first time he tried it?

Again, I don't have a big problem with an unsporting T charged directly to the player. But I still don't see how a T for delay can be charged, especially without a prior warning. Also, there's a difference between charging a team technical for delay, and charging an unsporting T directly to the player. The team T only gets added to the team foul count, while the unsporting T also gets charged to the player, and as an indirect to the head coach, since it happened before the game started.

[chartrusepengui]

I don't give a rats butt about LeBron or his actions - as juvenile as they appear all too often. I've already told you what I would have done and the reasons. If LeBron takes the 6 steps that the NBE allow - does that also mean we should allow this in HS too?

[mutantducky]

ha. this story is funny. I'm going to tell the people I play ball with about it. I wonder if LeBron uses something different because that has to go on the court as well. Maybe one day the stat and tv people will sue him because they inhaled so much chalk or whatever it is he uses.

[Nevadaref]

After some reflection, I agree with M&M that it is MORE appropriate to charge a technical foul for unsporting conduct to a starter who does this as it is definitely an individual attention situation and the NFHS has provided a clear directive to not allow such.

However, if the offenders are in the crowd, as one of the first posters proposed, then the team technical foul is the appropriate call if the start of the game has to be delayed.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Alright, let me ask you this - let's say the floor has a new finish put on it, and there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot. It takes more than a minute or two to try and dry it up, but they figure it's safer to move the game to a different court. Is that also a T, instead of a warning? If so, is it Team Technical, or is it charged to the individual? Is it an indirect to the head coach?

I guess I'm only arguing the reason for the T. If you say the T is because the game was delayed excessively, I would argue against that because there is no time limit mentioned in the rules. If you want to give the T directly to the player for unsporting conduct, I would feel more comfortable with that solution.

Instead of parsing the rules, use common sense as M&M has suggested here. The guy is drawing attention to himself and this is no different than the guy puffing out his shirt after making a basket.

[UNH IM Ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

there are specific instructions to keep water off the floor until it has finished curing. Then, during a TO, A1 spills some water on the floor that causes the finish to become sticky at that spot.

No way jose that floor is not ready for play anyway. Besides spilling water while drinking during a TO & throwing dust for your own aggrandizement before a game are 2 extremely different things IMO. One's a T & the other is common in-game court maintenance.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by UNH IM Ref

No way jose that floor is not ready for play anyway.

Granted, my example may be bad, but I was simply trying to point out the difference between "accidental" and "on purpose" long delays.

Originally Posted by UNH IM Ref

Besides spilling water while drinking during a TO & throwing dust for your own aggrandizement before a game are 2 extremely different things IMO. One's a T & the other is common in-game court maintenance.

I agree to a point, but which T would you give?

As I see it, the choices are:
T for delay - only charged to team; not to player.
T for unsporting behavior - charged to player, team, and indirect to HC.
Warning for delay - recorded in book, T charged for any other delay in the game.

What if the kid does it, trying to be cool, but sees the gym's HVAC is blowing the dust back unto the floor, gets this "oh, sh!t" look on his face, and is even on his hands and knees with the custodians trying to help clean it up. Would you still call this "on purpose"? If it's clear the kid didn't mean to delay the game, then you've got accidental in-game court maintenance, which is no different than cleaning up water after the TO, which is only a warning.

Another possible scenario - what if, during player intros, teammates are doing chest bumps and high-fives with each other, but one slips and hits their head on the floor and is knocked unconscious. The start of the game is delayed as the trainer attends to the player. So, since self-aggrandizement and the results delay the start of the game, who do you award the T?

My point is many say "give the kid a T for delaying the start of the game", but you cannot, by rule. It is a team T for delay, and it is not charged to the player. If you go with the unsporting T, what if the results are accidental? Then how is it not a warning first?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How is it significantly different than delaying the game because they had to wipe up spilled water off the floor?

Excellent question, and I agree that the difference in time is not a significant difference.

The significant difference is that when teams are drinking water during a TO, they're doing something legal. When that dope throws powder all over the floor, he isn't.

Perhaps this point is leading in the direction of an unsporting T, rather than delay...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Excellent question, and I agree that the difference in time is not a significant difference.

The significant difference is that when teams are drinking water during a TO, they're doing something legal. When that dope throws powder all over the floor, he isn't.

Perhaps this point is leading in the direction of an unsporting T, rather than delay...

Exactly. Can you show me where spilling water on the floor is "legal", but spilling powder isn't?

Again, my hangup is more on the terminolgy used in the calling of the T. A T for a delay is harder to back by rule, unless there was an official warning issued first. Also, a T for delay is a team T, and if the purpose is to penalize the idiot, wouldn't a direct T for unsporting behavior be more appropriate?

[OHBBREF]

The rules actually give you the authority to do either,
RULE 10 Fouls and Penalties
Section 1 Team Technicals
ART. 5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
a. When the clock is not running consuming a full minute through not being ready when it is time to start either half.

Yes they are ready but the direct, and controlable actions of their teammate made the facility unplayable.

Section 3 Player Technicals
ART. 7 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
c. Baiting or taunting an opponent.
If you are going to make the call I think by rule you would have a tougher time selling the Unsporting Technical.

I think this again becomes a game managment situation.
Yes the Kid has done something stupid,
Can we get around starting the game with a T? Probably
If we are going to T the kid what other consequences are involved?
Do they fit the actions and or the context of what is going on?

If a delay of game technical is necessary I can see that - a direct unsporting technical foul might require a little more than a toss of some chalk in the air, I'm not saying I would have a problem, but there is a lot of chest pounding and other stuff that goes one that might fit the same bill before the game as taunting.
So I would be really careful as to which Technical I gave out.

Also remember that the knucklehead that got them their technical still has to start the game, (unless a sudden illness takes him) they can sub and sit him down after the clock starts.

If the dealy were only a couple of minutes I might try to avoid any T here, - if it was over 5 minutes I do not think you would have much choice.