"An actionless contest"...?
 

Morning all-

Saturday boys V game. I had the JV and had some time before my next stop, so I hung out to check out the big boys game when the following occurred:

2 man crew. Game played as per usual in 1st quarter. Home team gets up a couple of points in 2nd Q then slows down the offense a few times. They get a resounding 5 point lead and literally stopped playing- brought the ball over midcourt and PG stopped and held the ball for the remaining 4:45 of the half.

Groans in the stands. V team coach not happy and glaring at H bench. H coach sits down the end of his bench not looking at anyone except his PG. Players were chatting amicably while the clock ticked down. Players seems either amused or just shrugged shoulders.

Now, I know that there USED to be a rule (maybe in NCAA) that says the team behind has to force the action. The officials in this game made sure nobody sat down on the floor, or otherwise did anything except stand there.

I believe that I read in the rule or case book that the officials shall "not allow the game to become an actionless contest" or words to that effect. I can't seem to find that language now that I actually look for it.

I had to leave at halftime- 2 questions:

1- were the officials correct in allowing the stall for the last 4:45? (I lean towards yes, but reserve the right to change my mind for question 2 below)

2- what if they continued in the 3rd & 4th quarter? Since I cannot find the "actionless contest" language, I can't cite the rule, but my thought at the time was that if I were the official, I would obviously discuss it at halftime and have a plan- mine would have been (to frantically search for the rule to bail me out at halftime) and not allow the stall to continue in 3rd quarter, citing the "actionless contest" language. Since I can't pull the citation out, that may get me in some hot water..

Further getting myself into more hot water, I would have considered allowing H team to stall again in 4th quarter to protect the lead. For some reason, stalling in the 4th quarter, to me, is different than the 2nd and 3rd quarters which results in an "actionless contest".

So, if I were the V official, and I did what I was leaning towards doing, would I ever get another V game? :eek:

It's a legal play.

There used to be a rule that the team behind had to force the action.

If H thinks this play gives them the best chance to win, and V allows it to happen, the officials should just stand there and collect game fee.

Had this in a Girls AAA District Championship game this past friday night. It was tie score and the home team held the ball for 3:00 minutes and then called time out. We just made sure we stayed awake during this time!!!

While I haven't had the situation to this extent, I have had several teams "work the ball around" for extended periods of time without really being challenged and concur - it's a great way to keep the game moving, collect a check, and.....have the fans vent against someone other than us! ;)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. The current rule about an actionless contest (10-1-5) has no applicability to this situation. If you notice, all of the examples listed under that rule are for times when a team prevents the ball from being put into play. In this case the ball is already in play. There is no rule which dictates HOW a team must play other than that they cannot do anything unsporting. BTW, I don't see any reason that the players couldn't sit down on the court if they so wished. I believe that the officials would be incorrect to instruct them not to do that.

If an official in my area attempted to do anything to a team employing the strategy of stalling, then that official would certainly get a stern talking to before being assigned to another varsity contest.

If the V coach didn't like it, why didn't he have his players go out and get a 5 count going. This is nothing the officials can or should address. This is coaching.

although unorthodox, this is good strategy.

In HS ball, especially, a coach has to use the personnel that are enrolled at the school, and go out for sport. If the talent is not the best, you sometimes have to get creative with strategy.

In college ball, if your talent is not "good enough," as a coach, that's your fault because you recruit your players. I think this contrast is one of the primary reasons that we have a shot-clock in college ball and not in HS ball (except for a few exceptions).

AMEN!

When I was coaching, at various times we would "shorten the game" by running time off the clock. Not a total stall but literally shortening the game. Say the time was 5:43 on the clock. We'd run our offense without a shot until the clock got under 5:00. From a coaching standpoint it can be very dangerous to totally stall as this takes away the momentum that you've built.

This is going to date me, but I seem to remember a game in the ACC way back in the 60's or 70's where the final score was something like 7-5. I am sure this promoted the introduction of the shot clock. We have a shot clock here in the big schools and it seems to work ok for HS kids.

We had an varsity girls game in our league a few years ago that finished 11-5. Visiting coach played only 2-3 zone all the time. Home team had no good shooters and decided they had enough ball-handling and patience. It was 2-0 home late in the third quarter when a home player, after holding for 7:50ish, drove in, scored, and was fouled. She made the FT and home went into the fourth up 5-0. After some more stalling, visitors finally had to come out of the zone with a couple minutes left and couldn't make up the difference.

I always thought it was one of the greatest pieces of high school coaching I had ever seen. He had to get his players to buy in, make sure they had the ball-handling and the poise to get through any surprise defensive efforts, and deal with anybody (like the visiting coach) who would be unhappy about it.

Back in the day didn't Dean Smith run the four corner offense just a bit?

The coach must have watched the replay of the REAL Hoosiers teams on ESPN Classic on Saturday. Bobby Plump, Jimmy Chitwood, held the ball for almost the entire 4th quarter to lead the Milan Little Giants to beat the Muncie Central Bearcats with a thrilling score of something like 32 - 30.

Slow Simmer....
 

Although I acknowledge that officials cannot prohibit or penalize this strategy, every time I see discussion about it, I get a bit agitated.

Several yrs ago (read 30), my HS had a player who was striving to earn the conference scoring title and set the new total points record. Unfortunately, we played our arch-rival in the 2nd to last game of the season who, as you guessed, stalled the entire game.

Final score 10-8. We got the "W" and our star player had 6 of the 10 pts, but it put him in an impossible position to achieve the season scoring title/record.

(temporary reprieve from my life-time vent)

I "exploited" the rule change the first year it happened (the elimination of the team trailing being required to force action). I was coaching at a small school for the deaf, and my cousin was an assistant coach at a large school in the same metro area. We had been beaten by another school for the deaf by 12 at our gym, and then by 30-something at their gym. I went to one of my cousin's games and saw them employ something similar to the OP, only they utilized it right before the end of the quarter or half to get the last shot off. After the game, he diagrammed it out for me, and I took it back to our school. We only lost by 4 to our rivals in the first round of the conference tournament (played in their gym!), and would have won had one of our guards not gotten greedy when it was tied. The fans in the gym didn't like it, but the other coach was obviously outcoached and even admitted to such in the paper the next day!

Did the booing from the home crowd bother your players? :D

There wasn't any booing, just signs of disgust which my players ignored, and I just smiled back at. My brother was in the stands that night, and having been a wrestler, he said it was the best HS basketball game he ever saw! :eek:

Cosign. If the coach didn't think of this, that AD should seriously consider finding someone else.

waaah!

Individual records should not be kept or sought in amateur team sports.

Did it occur to you that perhaps the player who set the record which your teammate was attempting to break might have faced that same strategy a few times himself and had to overcome it in achieving his point total and establishing the mark?

I am guessing that your HS team likely played lots of zone -- gave your scorer more energy at the offensive end. Personally, I hope we never put a shot clock in at the high school level as the "shorten the game" strategy can be a great equalizer.

As has been mentioned, there is no rule prohibiting the defense from playing (shutter the thought) more than 20 feet from the basket they are trying to defend. I would employ this strategy -- ALWAYS at the end of each quarter (even if we were behind by a single digit margin) -- on a regular basis. This is simple clock game management at the end of each quarter. Why give the other team a chance to score, if you don't have to? Too many coaches want to spend ZERO time on man-to-man defense in practice. They just want to line up in their zone and work on offense for two hours. Why should a team that spends LOTS of time on man-to-man defense in practice be penalized by forcing to play against the other team's strength?

My players LOVED IT when the other team's parents would start booing and yelling and complaining. They took even more joy in seeing the other team's coach complain. Typically, the other team would eventually come flying out after us. We were always in a "ready to attack" position: point guard holding the ball, but still having his dribble available; wings out wide near the sidelines about five feet from the division line; and posts in the corners about three feet off the sideline and three feet off the endline. As soon as the defense came out, we would execute our spread offense -- usually leading to a lay-up via a back door cut.

While these games frequently had very little action for a period of time, there was virtually always TONS of action after the other teams would come out of their zone. With little experience playing helpside defense, wing denial defense, etc., these teams were typically easy pickins' early on in our spread offense.

While the parties representing the defense can complain that the offense is "not playing basketball", it is the defense that is ALLOWING the offense to "not play basketball." When teams try to hold the ball against my team, I look at the game situation. Sometimes, I let them (if I have a player or two in foul trouble, for example). In most cases, we will come out and play aggressive man-to-man defense. Usually, below the college level, a team (especially if the team on defense is more talented) will not be able to successfully hold the ball under pressure.

The reason the shot clock was put into college basketball is that many teams -- particularly Big Ten and ACC teams -- were taking the air out of the ball with five or six minutes left in a two point game. Since most teams had talented ballhandlers in these conferences, teams virtually had to foul to get the ball back. These last five, six minutes or even more became free throw shooting contests exhibitions and not much more. Hence, the shot clock was enacted.

Counterpoint recognized.....
 

Bob Jenkins, Nevadaref, et al... I understand your perspectives and openly admit my posting was from MY mindset (as an adolescent) in the late 70's, when it occurred. As an official now, I call the action as it occurs, by the rules as they are written.

CMHCoachNRef you did an excellent (and eloquent) job of promoting coaching decisions to force the play/action to your team's strengths. Well Done!

and now I can move on to greener pastures....:)

I remember a story an old partner told me about a similar situation.

Team went into a stall about 5 minutes left in a quarter. The point guard stood with the ball, in the frontcourt for about 4 minutes. Defense stays in the zone, they all just sit there for the 4 minutes.

Clock gets down to about the 1 minute mark, so they are getting ready to put their play into motion. Point guard, still holding the ball, does the thing where you wipe the dust off the bottom of your shoe to get better traction -- picks one foot up, wipes it off. Picks other foot up, wipes it off -- My former partner -- tweet -- traveling -- ball handler just changed his pivot foot.

Thanks for the rule reference- It was starting to drive me nuts. I would only look forward to the stall ball if it were my obervation and I could make the travelling call on the kid who wiped his shoes before beginning his dribble- Hell I might retire after that! Staying awake for a quarter then catching the travel...? Sheer perfection.
Z

A few years ago. Girls JV game. Beginning of 3rd Quarter, A1 inbounds the ball to A2. She held the ball for 6 minutes. Coach of Team yelled to start the play at 1 minute. Every just stood around for 6 minutes. I was the lead official of a 2 official game. Things that ran through my head were: Did she start a dribble? Did she move any feet, thus establishing a pivot foot? Lucky for us, when it got to 1 minute, she passed the ball.

We'll assume she passed the ball legally. :p

It would be funny if A1 used his dribble then held the ball for 4 minutes then forgot that he couldn't dribble anymore.

If I ever get one of these situations, I'm going to stop the clock, privately ask the Team A HC how much time he will allow his team to stand there with the ball before making a move. Then I will privately ask the Team B HC how much time will he allow this before his team plays defense. Then I will instruct the timer to put on the score clock the value that is furthest from zeros. :D

Example: 8:00 on the clock, and there's a stall. Team A HC wants 0:15 before offensive movements begin. B HC will play defense at 0:30. I'll put :30 up and away we go. There, I just saved around 7:30. :p

Shortening the quarter is definitely the way to go. It's brilliant! :D

I had a two stalls in one game last over six minutes each, and sadly didn't even think of asking the coaches if they simply desired to shorten the quarter. :o

Tennessee/Temple, 12/15/1973. Final score was 11-6 Tennessee.

My former (and now deceased) supervisor was one of the referees, I believe.

The game bored him to death? :eek: <font size=1>(Sorry.)</font size>

I believe one of our new posters, BubbaRef, has some first-hand knowledge of a boy's varsity game in the area just recently that had a halftime score of 0 - 0, because one team wanted to stall and keep it out of the other team's hands.