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-   -   Striking with fist (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/51721-striking-fist.html)

A Pennsylvania Coach Tue Feb 17, 2009 03:59pm

Striking with fist
 
This violation, along with 10 seconds to shoot an FT, are two I've never seen called in my life. Anyway, last night, Men's Wreck League, point guard gets an inbound pass in his backcourt, all by himself, dribbles once, and the second dribble is whack-a-mole style, downward strike with the bottom of his fist, mad about something I guess. He continues his dribble and I call nothing, because it is rec league.

It got me to thinking about this, however. I was trying to decide if I would call it in a HS game. I mean, of course I'd call it at any level if any other player was near the fist-in-motion. But do I get this if the same situation as described above happens in a HS JV or V game?

I asked my partner but I don't know how much faith to put in his response. He said he wouldn't call it, but he doesn't call much apparently. Between games one of the guys who knew him was telling him a story about a T he got recently. His guy was getting "hammered in there" and he went to the official who was putting his whistle in his mouth, so he said, "if you are going to put your whistle in your mouth, blow it!" and got pinned. I said I'd T him too and my partner said "for what?" as he laughed.

deecee Tue Feb 17, 2009 04:05pm

If it were to happen as you stated I would have a chat with that player and tell him not to do it again (then again I havent seen a player do it the way you described). I called this once but it was off a rebound. Player used his fist to clear the ball. If he played soccer it would have been a beautiful save.

Bad Zebra Tue Feb 17, 2009 04:55pm

This topic comes up a couple times a year. I called it once in a B-V game. Defensive player punched a long rebound upcourt to a teammate on a fast break. I hit the whistle out of instinct. The whole gyn looked puzzled. I explained it to the coach next time I was near him. He thanked me and mentioned that they had done that several times that season an no one ever called them on it.

Incidentally, the player that punched the ball is now playing on a D1 scholarship.

PSidbury Tue Feb 17, 2009 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 580475)
If he played soccer it would have been a...

...pass.

But, this was JV-Boys basketball and the receiving player of a rolled pass decided to let it make contact with his foot so he could toe-flick it up into his hands.

Uh... no.

Paul

mbyron Tue Feb 17, 2009 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 580489)
He thanked me and mentioned that they had done that several times that season an no one ever called them on it.

Which goes to show you that even THIS old excuse can be true once in a blue moon!

ajs8207 Tue Feb 17, 2009 07:44pm

What's the proper mechanic for calling this?

deecee Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajs8207 (Post 580520)
What's the proper mechanic for calling this?

A bicycle kick.

Or if you want to go to the pre 2002 mechanic then you would do this...

http://www.joopitup.com/uploaded_ima...ken-745964.jpg

Mark Padgett Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:39pm

Note that there's no rule against a player striking his coach with his fist. I hope they don't change that.

JugglingReferee Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:40pm

That isn't Double Dragon, is it? :)

TheViper Tue Feb 17, 2009 09:34pm

Street Fighter .... OHHHH-YOUGETTT

mick Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach (Post 580472)
This violation, along with 10 seconds to shoot an FT, are two I've never seen called in my life. Anyway, last night, Men's Wreck League, point guard gets an inbound pass in his backcourt, all by himself, dribbles once, and the second dribble is whack-a-mole style, downward strike with the bottom of his fist, mad about something I guess. He continues his dribble and I call nothing, because it is rec league.

It got me to thinking about this, however. I was trying to decide if I would call it in a HS game. I mean, of course I'd call it at any level if any other player was near the fist-in-motion. But do I get this if the same situation as described above happens in a HS JV or V game?

Rule 9, SECTION 4 TRAVEL, KICK, FIST
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-
29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from
below.


NOTE:
Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.
PENALTY: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the
opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the

violation.

PA Coach,
My knee jerk reaction would be to no-call.
The Case Book shows nothing. The Rules By Topic gives no rationale.

So where do we go? If we try to decipher the spirit and intent, what do we find? We see a safety effect or a sporting effect.


The penalty is only loss of ball and it seems that it may fit in the same category as throwing an elbow. The rationale for the elbow movement is to reduce rough play.
  • If a player, bringing the ball up the floor (undefended), throws an elbow at nothing, will we take the ball away?
To me the reason for the fist rule is to reduce the potential for players swatting at balls or playing defense (in the vicinity of an opponent) with fists, which could certainly be intimidating and unsporting. The rules will (certainly) not state that a player may not make a fist, but it makes sense that playing the game with open hands is more applicable to the game of basketball.

I agree with you when you adjudge players in the vicinity, although if the lonely dribbler comes up the floor fist dribbling the ball, that player would have my attention; though I wouldn't be looking for the carry, I may see an illegal dribble.

shishstripes Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:47pm

I had a situation where the player punched the ball with his fist as well to advance the ball to a teammate. Only time I have ever had to call it. Gave the kick signal and said, "Punching the ball." Players thought it looked funny that I used a kicking motion to call punching.

Bad Zebra Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shishstripes (Post 580562)
I had a situation where the player punched the ball with his fist as well to advance the ball to a teammate. Only time I have ever had to call it. Gave the kick signal and said, "Punching the ball." Players thought it looked funny that I used a kicking motion to call punching.

Why would you use a kick signal?

shishstripes Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 580568)
Why would you use a kick signal?

That is what I was taught to use at a camp where we covered violations in the classroom. There is no approved signal for fist and this official's reasoning was that it was grouped with kick, but to specify that it was for punching the ball verbally.

Zoochy Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:21pm

I have stated this in a past post on Fisting. I saw a girl do in to begin the game. I know your minds are in the gutter..... but she punched the ball on the opening jump ball.
As mentioned by others, I have seen it called when a player punched the ball during a rebounding action.

mick Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shishstripes (Post 580569)
That is what I was taught to use at a camp where we covered violations in the classroom. There is no approved signal for fist and this official's reasoning was that it was grouped with kick, but to specify that it was for punching the ball verbally.

TRAVEL, KICK, FIST

I wonder why it isn't the Traveling with the Kick.
["And awaaay we go!" - Jackie Gleason with a little Traveling music]

Bad Zebra Wed Feb 18, 2009 06:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by shishstripes (Post 580569)
That is what I was taught to use at a camp where we covered violations in the classroom. There is no approved signal for fist and this official's reasoning was that it was grouped with kick, but to specify that it was for punching the ball verbally.


Been to several camps but never heard that before. Interesting reasoning.

SmokeEater Wed Feb 18, 2009 09:23am

We were told to close your fist and strike the palm of your other hand when making this call. Never had to do it as of yet and this is year 30.

Adam Wed Feb 18, 2009 09:59am

I was C in a game this year when a caught a girl doing it in front of lead. She was trying to save the ball from going OOB, but the L called her for being OOB when she hit it. I told her on the way down the court that it was against the rules to punch the ball.

"For real?"
"yeah."

BillyMac Wed Feb 18, 2009 07:16pm

At participating locations only.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mick (Post 580556)
To me the reason for the fist rule is to reduce the potential for players swatting at balls or playing defense (in the vicinity of an opponent) with fists, which could certainly be intimidating and unsporting. The rules will (certainly) not state that a player may not make a fist, but it makes sense that playing the game with open hands is more applicable to the game of basketball.

mick: This is almost exactly what my interpreter said after I asked him about the this rule last year. I had called the violation after one player punched the ball to his teammate, while both were alone, with no defenders, in the backcourt. I won't make that call again.

CallMeMrRef Wed Feb 18, 2009 08:48pm

NCAA ruling
 
I am pretty sure that we got a bulletin on this for NCAA games and the strike with a fist is to be handled in the same manner as a kick. Reset clock to 15 if under 15 seconds at time of violation.

Raymond Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:13pm

Resurrection thread
 
Actually called my first fisting violation, Boys JV. Missed shot, defensive player surrounded by 3 offensive players jumps and punches the rebound towards his front court.

In order to keep the ladies in the crowd from getting excited, I chose verbalize the violations as "he punched the ball". :D

Sharpshooternes Mon Feb 03, 2014 04:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach (Post 580472)
This violation, along with 10 seconds to shoot an FT, are two I've never seen called in my life. Anyway, last night, Men's Wreck League, point guard gets an inbound pass in his backcourt, all by himself, dribbles once, and the second dribble is whack-a-mole style, downward strike with the bottom of his fist, mad about something I guess. He continues his dribble and I call nothing, because it is rec league.

It got me to thinking about this, however. I was trying to decide if I would call it in a HS game. I mean, of course I'd call it at any level if any other player was near the fist-in-motion. But do I get this if the same situation as described above happens in a HS JV or V game?

I asked my partner but I don't know how much faith to put in his response. He said he wouldn't call it, but he doesn't call much apparently. Between games one of the guys who knew him was telling him a story about a T he got recently. His guy was getting "hammered in there" and he went to the official who was putting his whistle in his mouth, so he said, "if you are going to put your whistle in your mouth, blow it!" and got pinned. I said I'd T him too and my partner said "for what?" as he laughed.

I actually had a 10 second FT violation a couple of weeks ago, the first I have ever called or seen. Girls soph game two shot foul. First free throw I was a little slow in starting my count and got to about 9 and half. Second free throw, I payed more attention because the first took so long. Got to 12 and she still hadn't shot. Tweet. Send it.

jeschmit Mon Feb 03, 2014 08:25am

Here's the only fist violation I've called last year. It was a double whistle and the two of us used the same "mechanic" for punching the ball... and we didn't even pregame it!

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jeremy341a Mon Feb 03, 2014 01:58pm

Looked like you guys were driving a big rig in the disco days.

Adam Mon Feb 03, 2014 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 921071)
Here's the only fist violation I've called last year. It was a double whistle and the two of us used the same "mechanic" for punching the ball... and we didn't even pregame it!

Funny. It was a dumb play, too. She could have just grabbed it.


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