Block/Charge call results in Floyd being ejected
 

Curious everyone's thoughts. It's about a 2:00 clip, and we don't get a replay until the end.

Looks like C may be getting ready to call a block when L comes hard with the PC.

Thoughts?

I think it was a block...~~~

Did they actually call a blarge? Floyd was upset because the C came in with a block signal, but was he mad because the only called a charge or because they went with a blarge? The officials on the court may not have even known what he was upset about because of how out of control he was.

Tim Floyd is a PUNK!!!! I only watch USC games to watch Floyd go nuts AFTER he thinks he team has lost it's chance to win.....then he blames the officials and gets wacked...Saw this game live and was waiting for the "Floyd Eruption"....

It was a good double whistle in a block/charge situtation and the officials did EXACTLY what they should.....lead takes the call; outside officials (in this case C) blow and hold w/ a fist.

btw, I agreed w/ the charge. Good call and Tim Floyd makes the officiating a storyline of the game when it should not have been.

The C did not signal a block at any time....if you feel he did, watch the video again....

You have no idea what the C was going to call; great job by the officials. I also think it's a great charge. Defender was there just in time, before the dribbler went airborne.

Exactly. If I had to guess, it's what he was getting ready to do, but he didn't.

And I also agree with the call. It was tough and close, but contact came before the offensive player was airborne, and the defender was sliding laterally or even a little backwards. Contact was in the torso.

I also agree that Floyd is a punk.

The L anticipated the call. He's two steps onto the floor before the defender even hits the ground. I don't agree with the charge. Defender is still sliding in front of him when contact is made.

Even so, Floyd's an idiot. The Pac-10 needs to sit him down a game.

Is sliding laterally against the rules when the player isn't airborne?

Block or charge, doesn't matter. Why in the world do coaches need to go ape**** on one simple call. Can't really make out time and score, but it appears to be relatively close. It would be nice to have your head coach on the bench down the stretch wouldn't it? As it was ASU gets four free throws, game over.

He can slide but he still has to get to the spot first and he didn't in my opinion.

The call did not result in Floyd's ejection. His response to a close play and idiot behavior is what got him tossed. Whether or not it was a good call is irrelevant. If you watched the end of the UCLA-ASU game, the official called a pc on Collison when it should have been a block and a good basket, putting UCLA up by one and the nation's leading FT shooter at the line. Did you see him react like Hackett or Howland get tossed? Adult behavior is recommended here.

Cool. I operate from the "if contact is in the torso, he got there first" in situations like this.

If the offensive player is airborne, there's the added element of when did he get there, but that's not applicable in this case.

Excellent point - much more appropriately worded than my original post.

Investigating further...

Found this article from the LA Times

While the author does get in the normal cheap shots on the officials, he does put the onerous rightfully on Floyd.

Watching the interview, I'm wondering what game was he watching? He's basing his whole tirade on the fact that McCall signaled a blocked and an 'and 1'. I guess that's why he went after him and not the Lead. I've watched the play over and over again, and it's a textbook way to AVOID a blarge. At no time am I seeing anything resembling a "block and count it" signal. What am I missing here?

I saw the same thing you did. Additionally the Lead was not in a great position to see the secondary defender. The C had the best look at this play but did a great job withholding his preliminary.

At worst it was a missed call. Don't see why Floyd exploded like he did.

Tim Floyd is an IDIOT!

A charging foul was the correct call. Who had the primary call is difficult one because the drive started in the T's primary, the secondary defender, who drew the charge, moved into a LGP from the C's primary, and the foul occured right smack in the geometric center of the free throw lane.

Based upon the location of the other players on the court I doubt if the T could see the secondary defender move into a LGP and therefore should not have a whistle on this play. The play has to be covered by the C and the L, and I really do not see how anything but a charge could be called by either the C or the L. The C never signaled what type of foul, but as an evaluator, I would want the C to make the final call on this play and not the L.

MTD, Sr.

I agree that Floyd needs to learn to keep his cool. He does his team no good by being sent to the locker room and the refs sure didn't waste any time bouncing his sorry behind. This call may have been the proverbial straw in Floyd's mind; we don't see what all happened up to this point. That being said, a good coach needs to keep his cool. Blowing up like that is no help at all.

The problem is, this was at worst a missed close call. Floyd seems insistent that the C called (not "was going to call," but "called') a block. Even if he was right, best case scenario for him is a double foul, for which his only benefit would be a throwin and one more team foul for his opponent. But the C did not call a block. C had his fist up, that was it.

I have a PC foul. It looks like the contact took place before/as the player was going airborne. I have no problem with the call and the ball handler had no where to go. I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the defender in this situation.

Peace

yes it is illegal if he has yet to establish guarding position and then come in sliding and didn't beat the offensive player to the spot.

Badnewsref,

I would disagree with you in the mechanics of this play. The lead has the best look at the secondary defender and can better assess the lateral movement of the defender than the slot, although i still believe the referee got the play wrong.

I guess we're seeing different things, then, because the defender definitely faced the offensive player with both feet on the ground (establishing LGP) and IMO definitely beat the offensive player to the spot.

LOL

The guard who fouled on the play had this to say:

"He's a great basketball coach, and he had all the right to do that. I thought it was a bogus call, he thought it was a bogus call, a lot of people thought the same."

I tend to agree with both of your assessments of the play. An argument can be made for a PC foul as well but I think it was a block.

This is why I enjoy coming on this forum and discuss plays and philosophies with other officials.

A few of my other colleagues saw the play last night and we discussed the entire dichotomy of it all (please bare with me).

Here is another view of the incident from a different angle:

http://palestra.net/videos/play/21409

Officials in the Pac10 are given a rating by the coaches (right or wrong whether they should do this is entirely for another discussion). Through a reliable source, the coaches rating is about 30-40% of the conference ranking of the official. That is a huge chunk of an official's grade. The higher the grade, the more games you get (ie: more money). Officials do not want to be marked down and to me, they let Floyd get away with too much even prior to the block/charge play. Floyd was out of the coaching box multiple times during the game and it was not addressed. It was obvious the officials were trying to appease Floyd rather than deal with him. If you address Floyd, he will mark you down.

It also appeared to me that David Hall did not do enough to protect Randy Mcall from Floyd. As the "R" on the game, he should never had let Floyd even get close to Mcall when he was at halfcourt in the first place. Mcall issues the 2nd T as Floyd walks away. Mcall made a mistake of going to the table to report the T when Floyd was still yelling at Hall and Dick Cartmell. Hall then goes to the table and leaves Cartmell alone to deal with a yelling Floyd as Mcall tries to walk away. Floyd then walks back to Hall who is at the table. During the tirade, Hall is shown pointing at Mcall not once but TWICE; I don't know what was said but if I saw my partner pointing at me while a coach was yelling, I would be furious. :mad: Hall has his hand on Floyd's waist to calm him down in a friendly manner.

In my opinion, Hall should not have done anything or even been near the table until the situation with Floyd was addressed. Cartmell did the best he could to separate Floyd from Mcall but Hall (as the R) should've been right there as well.

To his credit, (right or wrong) Hall made a tough call against USC. It just appeared to me after the call, Hall was doing all he could to keep his high rating.

Great double whistle, great communication between L and C, and great call.

Moron coach.

It looked to me when I watched it the first time that he started to signal a block, albeit VERY slightly, with his left arm. The announcers (I know they're full of it...you don't have to remind me) also say something about how they thought he started to signal a block.

I'm not defending Floyd at all. He's obviously an idiot. As for the call, I think they got it right after watching several times.

IMO, Player Control...

As long as you're not blindly defending the officials, right? ;)

I never saw him go for his hip. And the signal would be both hands, his fist hand never started to come down.

Nope, if I think they screw up, I'll say it.

NCAA basketball isn't fixed like the NFL anyway. :p

Player control. Excellent call! (I was able to slow it down to a point where the defender had both feet on the ground with separation to the offensive player. That is LGP. After that, B's movement was legal.)

Naturally, the HC is ejected for his behavoir. Good call there too.

And this is the reason we cannot comment to this person? :rolleyes:

Peace

FWIW, it is very rare for an official to close when calling a PC foul at all levels. I cannot recall a time where an official came in then gave the PC signal. So I can see where Floyd thought he was going to get the call. McCall closed in all the way to the lane line. Usually the C will blow the whistle and point the other direction right away.

This was a tough call, and this seems like the time when the crew needed to call the Blarge as other crews have done recently.

Let me get this straight, you are advocating that the 'C' should of went ahead and called a block thus creating a blarge and that other crews around the country are calling blarges on purpose?

Umm, no.

No blarge!! No blarg!!
 

I Call Fouls:

This was NOT a "blarge" and could never (apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) be a "blarge". Do NOT even think about a "blarge" because by definiton it is IMPOSSIBLE for a "blarge" to occur.

MTD, Sr.

This is my take on the whole thing. Was it a big call, yes. Would the call either way have impacted the game, yes. Was the call correct. Not knowing what to expect, and seeing it the first time, I would have had the same thing. So I have no problem with the call.

At some point a coach has to have some kind of self control. Was he upset, sure, any coach in that situation would have. Heck, I coach, I have had a call go the other way..but I didnt erupt and try to attack a official. Not much you can do but play out the 48 seconds and hope you get a favorable call the next time. Someone made a comment abut the other officials letting Floyd go to far on the court and getting to close to the C. What in the world are you supposed to do. Tackle coach Floyd. Coach Floyd was hell bent on being a child in a tantrum. I have no problem the way it was all handled. Its not High school, so there are different ways to handle coaches.

Bottom line, Coach Floyd cost his team a chance.

I was watching some of that game before and ASU was playing better. Throw a tantrum to distract from the fact that your team is being beat. Like some others I'm leaning to a block but get Floyd a pacifier for the next game.

Edited for television.
 

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Technically, you're correct, the word, "blarge" does not appear anywhere in the NFHS Rulebook, or the NFHS Casebook. However, you must know that many of us refer to 4.19.8 Situation C, as a blarge, although technically it's just a double foul.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

It was a tongue in cheek statement, because of a couple of recent plays that have been discussed here. :rolleyes:

i only watched the live play and called this a block in my first post, i actually let it play through to the low angle replay this time and this is absolutely, positively a no brainer block imo. The player does not "beat" the player to the spot when contact is made.

That being said, the contact is made prior to the player going airborne and furthermore the contact doesn't even allow the player to alight so the rule dealing with shooters leaving the floor and the defender having to be there goes out the window. It now becomes "did the defender beat the offensive player to the spot and become legal?" in my eyes the answer to this is a resounding no he does not beat him to the spot. At BEST it is a tie and a tie results in a blocking foul because the defender did not BEAT him to the spot.

Good debate though

WTF? You got a rule reference for this one? Don't forget to read about LGP and the rights it bestows on the defender.

Ben,

I don't see how the L had the best look at the secondary defender when there was already a another defender directly in front of the lead.

The Team A player goes right to the C official and tries to make a case for something in his mind.

What I don't like is that this behavoir has trickled down this year in Basketball Ontario sanctioned games, to 9 and 10 year olds! I couldn't believe it when I saw it!

Okay, here is my 2 cents:

Lead - he did not have the best look at this play. I paused it right at the contact and the lead was looking at the back of the white defensive player. He was pinching the paint.

C - he had the best look at the play, looking between both the players and he "should" of had the fist crack at this play.

Now as i play the video back and forthe, right at the contact. Look at the C's left arm, it "appears" that he was going to call a block, but saw the lead punch it. This is why I dont give the appearence of any prelims from the outside. Replay the video and you make the desicion if there was the appearence of a prelim......

I replayed it, and I didn't see anything. His right arm never started to come down, and I've never seen a college ref make a block signal with one arm.

You're only saying that because he took it the Hawks every year when he was at the good school. :D

there was nothing in front of the lead! he pinched down and had the best look of lateral movement of both defenders that were near the play. In reference to block/charge plays you don't need to see between the players, you need to be able to see the lateral movement of the defender, and that can best be seen by the Lead, with the C having a pretty good look at it as well.

All right, I took time to watch it. I was a huge Floyd fan when he was at ISU and like the way his college teams play. I'd love to side with him on this, but I can't. It looked like a tough call and there really isn't anything he should have blown up about like that. There may be some history between he and the lead or something. Who knows?

I don't know if I agree with that but I'm pretty sure I know why you have that opinion. Had a play in camp this summer in which I was the Lead on a fast break. Crash was just above the opposite block but all I could see was the defender's back from my 'pinched down' position. I had no whistle and the 'C' took the play and called a PC. NBA ref/college supervisor told his observer I should have had a whistle. Observer (big dawg D1 official) disagreed with his boss and said I rightfully let the C take it b/c I was straight-lined and the play was on the opposite side of the paint.

Nah, I'm saying that because his protoge did the same thing with ISU after Floyd was "coaching" the Bulls. Remember Michigan State? :D

BTW, I figured this one would bring you out of hiding.

Of course this one gets me around. I do not remember Michigan State. That game never happened. If the game that never happened is replayed on ESPN Classic, I turn off the tv. Why watch a game that never happened. :D

if it is above the block and almost outside the paint on the opposite side then i am ok with it, but lane line drives or drives right down the middle of the plane is absolutely the L's play and imo the right guy took the play but didn't get it right, oh well. Whack! and dump him! haha

So you are saying the looking at the players numbers on the back give you a better look then looking between them??? You will get a lot of plays wrong that way...

everyone can have their own opinion about whether it was a charge or a block - that's fine. what really shouldn't be in doubt is who had the responsibility to make the call.

the philosophy has evolved over the last 1-2 seasons that the Lead should make the calls on drives coming toward the basket (particularly on block/charges). the point was really drilled home to me from several D1 conf. assignors this summer in their respective camps.

apparently, several years ago their were too many blarges called during D1 men's games and the idea developed that if you have the Lead make the call - and be responsible for making the call - that will eliminate the potential for blarge situations.

therefore, block/charge plays outside the lane on C's side will remain C's call; but for clarity sake, plays in the lane (both during and after transition) should be called by Lead.

this makes it vitally important that Lead rotate and get ball side when a skip-pass/ball reversal happens in half-court play to eliminate confusion. if Lead gets there BEFORE the drive starts, you'll avoid this potential blarge situation.

in this USC vs ASU play, the ball came right down the middle of the lane on a drive that started from strong-side....it was Leads call and "if" Center has a whistle, then he better "blow and hold"......

you're thinking in terms of when you actually need to see between players, i.e., shove offs, handchecks, hit on arm, etc. This is not the case in block/charge situations. Like i said earlier, in block/charge situations you need to be able to see the lateral movement of the defender on drives to the hoop.

I'm just asking you to think about it? What is more important on a block/charge play, seeing between the players or recognizing lateral movement of the defensive player?


I agree you could get a lot of plays wrong if you blew every play when you were looking at the player's numbers, but a block charge play is not one of them.

I always think like this:

If i am the best official in position to referee lateral movement of the defender then i blow the whistle, if i am not then i withold, whereas with any other type play if i can't see in between the players or obviously see the contact i hold the whistle as well.

Floyd NOT suspended
 

The Pac-10 decides not to suspend Floyd. Unbelievable. :mad:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-spw...,7258277.story

USC's Tim Floyd, Daniel Hackett avoid Pac-10 penalty

By Chris Foster
6:57 PM PST, February 17, 2009

USC Coach Tim Floyd and guard Daniel Hackett were not reprimanded by the Pacific 10 Conference for actions and comments during and after the Trojans' loss to Arizona State on Sunday.

"The conference will take no public action," said Dave Hirsch, the Pac-10's assistant commissioner.

A source, who wished to remain anonymous because he was not authorized to speak about the issue, said conference officials did not issue a private admonishment.

Floyd was ejected during the final minute of the Sun Devils' 65-53 victory after an animated protest of a charging call on Hackett, who collided with Jamelle McMillan while banking in a shot. Pac-10 officials said Monday that charging was the only call made, but players from both teams had said one referee called blocking and said "and one." That would have given Hackett a free throw and a chance to cut the deficit to three points with 54 seconds left.

After the charging call was made, an agitated Floyd burst onto the court and received two technical fouls. Hackett, after the game, criticized referee Dave Hall, who called the charge. "It was not the first time we have had some issues there," Hackett said, adding that players refer to him as "no-call Hall."

The history between Hall and the Trojans includes Hall's ejection of Floyd from a game at Washington State last season. He also ejected forward Leonard Washington this season for hitting Oklahoma forward Blake Griffin.

Floyd had repeatedly said that, per conference rules, he could not comment about the officiating, but did so in a way that indicated his anger at the call. He said Tuesday he had no regrets about his on-court tirade.

"We don't have the ability to speak at the end of the game and, really, no voice other than filling out a report," Floyd said. "Without being able to state, through your actions, your displeasure, we have no recourse. It's always been a part of game. I'm not the first coach in this league to be thrown out in game, nor in the country. I chose to express myself with the way I felt fit the situation at the time."

Whether the call cost the Trojans a chance to win is open to debate. They would have trailed by three even if Hackett had made the free throw and they rank last in the conference in three-point field-goal percentage.

Seeing that Griffin got punched in the nuts, I'd say that one was warranted. The ejection at Washington State doesn't surprise me either, seeing how Floyd acted against ASU.

Floyd has absolutely no remorse for his actions and sees nothing wrong with what he did! Yikes! :eek:

Way to set a good example coach!

Yep, a shining example for young men. Recall that Floyd recruited OJ Mayo to USC and had him play there for a year. :rolleyes:

Repeat after me: there is no bad publicity, there is no bad publicity....

A-Roid probably agrees with you!

Anyone who believed Mayo was staying for longer that just one yr at USC, inspite of what he said publicly, was naive.

You can rest assured that every 08/09 NCAA Year in Review will show both Knight and Floyd making @sses of themselves.

Hey, BillyMac, I figured it out. mbyron is really Kenneth Mullinax, Director of University Relations for Alabama State University. :eek:

http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=9859983

Rarely do I side with coaches, but if indeed there was one official yelling block and saying and one, and the other coming out big timing a charge, he shouldn't have remorse. If that's my team and my full time job, you can bet I'm going to have a difficult time letting that one go.

I did get a kick out of his comment about the game report. The only recourse we have after a coach acts like that is our game report. :D

You can blame the NBA for the the one year thing. Now, recruiting Mayo after his little high school incident is another story.

That was the point of my post. I really don't care that he didn't stay longer, and wasn't commenting on that at all. I was only noting that he did actually come to the school after being recruited and play there for a year under Floyd.