Conduct: Both Players and Officials
 

This evening in a rec league game where I regularly play I was defending the rebounder in transition. We had both gone up for the ball and he had come down with it. I continued to defend him with arms completely outstretched to make the outlet pass more difficult. I was very close to him but neither my body nor my hands were in contact with he or the ball. He brought the ball up with elbows out above his shoulders and swung them from side to side. Because I was defending closely his elbow hit me across the face and knocked me back. The whistle blew and obviously I was thankful that my good "d" was rewarded. BUT a defensive foul was called on me. I was stunned.

I looked at the official who blew the whistle (the trailing official) and said verbatim in a calm voice "What did I do, what's the call?". He said "you fouled him". I disagreed, clearly, but I said "right, what is the foul?". I wanted to know what he was calling: a hold, a push, etc. because clearly I was knocked back by an elbow above shoulder level.

MY QUESTION: Is it required that the referee specify the foul? Routinely, on questionable plays like this when asked respectfully he won't elaborate on the foul. Even to the scorer's table he only says it is "a foul" on sketchy calls - he won't specify. As a player, if I ask so I know what I'm doing wrong, shouldn't a referee who is acting professionally at least explain the call? Most importantly, as a referee are you not required to specify the type of foul after the initial whistle? You cannot just call "a foul" and leave it at that, right?

Please fill me in if I'm missing something. This referee consistently threatens to "T you up" when asked repeatedly about these calls. But I feel I'm owed something if I'm respectful and blood is streaming out of my nose or I'm having to pick myself up off the floor.

Thanks.

Love this forum and I truly have a lot of respect for basketball officials because much of the calls are so subjective - thus the need for this forum and discussion!

P.S. We play using Georgia Highschool Rules and I thought it was pretty much a universal that once the elbows come up above shoulder height and are swung (even if no contact is made) that's either a "tech" or some kind of turnover.

Strictly speaking, a referee is never "required" to specify the type of foul. While there are approved mechanics which do make this appropriate, the exact way in which a foul is reported varies greatly from one official to the next, or even one call to the next. This is further complicated by the fact that the signals very often fail to accurately describe/do justice to what actually has taken place. When you consider all that, then add the fact that this is a rec league, you kinda have to take what you get. Finally, if you say he missed the call, we will take your word for it, but questioning the call after the fact rarely helps. If you were actually bleeding, this might help to communicate what happened, but, make no mistake, it is possible to commit a foul with your face.

1.excessive swinging of the elbows is a violation

2.making contact is a foul

3.Rec league is not where you will find the highest quality officials, players or coaches

4.Proper mechanics on a foul call include the nature of the foul when being reported to the table [see 3 above]

I will respond to any question that is respectfully asked. I don't respond to comments, if possible.

The quality of officiating in rec leagues is not usually as good as scholastic leagues because a lot of the communication from players in rec leagues is not respectful.

Thanks for the quick response. And I appreciate that your face can be used to commit a foul as much as your hands or your body. I was just under the impression that if we're both upright and the only contact between my body and his is an elbow to my face ABOVE shoulder level that there really is little room for interpretation.

Thank you for clarifying though - I was under the impression that there were set types of fouls: push, hold, block, etc. and though not all "fouls" fit neatly into each type you had to call something when you blew the whistle not just "a foul". I'll keep that in mind next time realizing he's not required to specify. Haha, though it would be nice to know why I'm bleeding.

I understand...I've played competitive organized basketball all my life and I have a lot of respect and working knowledge of the game so I tend to expect the same respect for the game from officials. Unfortunately, it is hard to find in rec leagues which I'm now forced to play in - even though they're fairly high skill level leagues. When I play in leagues with obviously certified and experienced officials I definitely express my appreciation for their presence at the end of games. It makes the game a lot more enjoyable all around.

If the player is pivoting his body along with his elbows, I've got nothing.
If the defender is leaning over the player with the ball and gets hit in the face by an elbow that is not swinging excessively, I've got nothing.
If a player repeatedly questions calls, I won't threaten to T him up. I will warn him that I've heard enough. Next time, I will just T him up. You can ask once, politely, and I'll tell you. If you don't like my answer, tough.

Fair enough. Good point about the pivoting - though it doesn't apply to my situation I'll definitely bare that in mind in the future.

Don't Put Anything Smaller Than Your Elbow In Your Ears ...
 

Excessive swinging is normally viewed as when the elbows swing in a greater arc than the movement of the hips, which rebounders will often do to look for a receiver for their outlet pass. For example, if the rebounder swings their hips 180 degrees, then the elbows are also allowed to swing with the hips, that is, 180 degrees. However, if the rebounder swings his hips 180 degrees, and his elbows swing 270 degrees, then that is considered excessive swinging of the elbows.

A player control foul, even if the elbows are not swinging excessively, if the defender isn't moving toward the rebounder. Could also be ruled an intentional personal foul, or a flagrant personal foul, if the elbows are swinging excessively.

Ahhh, great speicifcs on the arc - I think that definitely plays into Snaqwells point about the pivoting. If you're pivoting it's unlikely your elbows will exceed the arc of your hips.


I'm not sure I understand "player control foul" definition. If a defender is set (not moving) and an offensive player uses swinging his elbows (even in a controlled manner) to control the ability of the defender to move toward him or defend him - that could be any of the fouls you listed? Did I read that right?

Also BillyMac - good point about your ears. Haha. Admittedly, I regularly ignore that warning about the use of Q-tips.

All I Want For Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth ...
 

If the defender is moving into the rebounder's "cylinder", I agree. However, if the defender isn't moving into the rebounders "cylinder", if he's just standing within his "cylinder" near the rebounder, and the rebounder pivots with his elbows swinging, in the same arc as the pivot, i.e. not excessively, and the elbow moves into the defender's "cylinder", and knocks two of his teeth out, I've got a player control foul. Not intentional, not flagrant.

Nice post Mick!

Let me start this with ---- Yes, it is tiresome to hear whiny gripes, but we have tools to deal with this if it becomes excessive. But when asked respectfully we should offer "professional" explanations.

I want to focus on officials who appear in a rush (or fearful to explain their call and expose their genuine lack of rules knowledge). They also appear agitated if they are asked legitimate questions from coaches or players. It doesn't take much to clarify your ruling for a coach or player, IF you can efficient respond with the criteria used to make the call.

In regards to the OP, the official may have observed that B1 was not in a LGP, because he was moving into A1 causing displacement. If he offered a brief summarization of this to the player (camargue44) he would have understood the call and hopefully improved his understanding of the rules.

Nonetheless, confident officials with comprehensive rules knowledge, and clear, concise communication can keep things flowing smoothly. Those who are lacking these attributes are a liability to their partner. If both are lacking it can become an ugly scene.

Have you considered the possibility that you were moving into the opponent and just didn't realize it?

I wish I had a dollar for ever player that's ever said, "I didn't touch him."

I had a player get knocked in the eye by a pivoting rebounder. He was leaning over top of the offensive player, I had a no-call and coach wasn't happy.

Haha...I'm fairly certain. For a couple of reasons. Went up for the rebound - he got it - and from the time I came down until the contact occurred - which may have been 5-10 seconds - my feet never moved - I landed in a position that allowed me to defend the outlet pass - the only difference: my arms were outstretched at my sides and perfectly straight.

We were both upright - no one leaning over another. I definitely "touched" him but the contact occurred when his elbow contacted my face in a sideways swinging motion out from his body - bare in mind that I was at least 3" taller than the offensive player so to contact my face (I'm not bent over at all) his elbows would have to be above his shoulder level.

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.

As strange as it may seem if the official said to me: Regardless of it being an elbow to your face because I SAW it as you moving toward him you didn't have LPG so the contact becomes your head hitting his elbow not his elbow hitting your head.

Of course I would say "Man, I thought I was set...oh well" and chug on down the court.

But instead I'm left with a stinging nose, a curt response, and no understanding of what just transpired.

Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.

Legal Guarding Position has nothing to do with being set BTW. ;)


And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

And good officials do not care what you have confidence in. Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

Rut must be one hell of an official, or he would surely work full time in the public relations field. Cam, the fact is, that some officials cannot even spell "explaination," even when they have spell check.

Evidently, the official disagreed.

I should have been more specific - "set" meaning: feet firmly planted on the floor, square/facing my opponent. My use of lingo might not be as accurate as your professional peers - I'm still learning.

Secondly, I don't think asking an official in a calm controlled manner, "what did I do?" is "crap" - especially when it's the first thing you've said to any official all game. I've never officiated but I've played at all levels of basketball (except pro obviously) and know it's okay to communicate with officials respectfully. If that wasn't true it would be specifically written into the rules and we'd all run around quietly.

My objective here was to learn if an official HAS TO specify the type of foul being called, "push, hold, block, etc." but I learned that he does NOT have to. Case closed.


Others found this question reasonable and gave reasonable constructive responses - very helpful! I don't know why - but your last set of sentences is so unconstructive I have to respond to at least the last one:

My being lucky and officials being willing has nothing to do with it. I pay to be a member of a competitive league and those fees are used (among other things) to compensate officials - they're not there out of an act of charity. Does this mean I don't have to treat them with respect? Absolutely NOT. However, if you accept money for a service that makes you a professional and you should act like one. If the money isn't too "silly" for you to put in your wallet then the league isn't either.

Here is the thing, an officials does not have to give you an explanation about anything. And you will not find any such directive in mechanics, rules or professional standards. If you want an explanation, you may or may not get one because such explanation is only a courtesy. Honestly if you are always wanted one, many officials will ignore you.

Yep.

No one told you to come here to an officiating board. You not only told people what an official should do, you got testy when people told you that you were wrong. It is really not my concern to care what you find constructive. As I said, be happy that someone even wants to work those games. Because most officials that are worth their salt or have any common sense avoid them for the very reason this conversation illustrates. You feel you are entitled to something that you have no right to. ;) You could have accepted the first responses that were clear you were not owed anything. But as usually a player cannot do that.

You are right about taking money part, but that also means that we do not have to do things that make you happy. You will not find any reference (ANYWHERE) that requires any official to talk or explain anything to players. Even coaches have some courtesy, but they can lose that real quickly if they act out of turn. Our job as officials is to only call a game. And if you knew anything about most officials, they lose money trying to work games. And if I wanted to make money I would stay two seconds from my house and work little rec and Men's leagues and have to deal with wannabe Jordan or has-beens playing a game as if it is the 7th game of the NBA Finals.

Peace

Haha. The only thing I could see you construing as being "testy" is #17 which is really a direct response to a question asked. The only "testiness" I see is the use of the word "silly" in reference to someone's activities and questioning someone's physical toughness. I mean come on, really?

Every other one of my posts following my initial question is some form of thanks. And my "telling officials what to do"? More like, this is my expectation - tell me where I'm wrong (read: I'm willing to admit I don't have all the facts!) - that's pretty much my first post summed up.

Now will I bicker over whether I think the call was right? Haha...sure..that was distracting to the main point of the thread - I agree. It is what it is. Nothing to be done now. But don't lump that together with some unrealistic expectation I have for officials to make me happy - I don't. I think my main question was separate and distinct - the actual in game call was merely context.

And your darn right - I didn't HAVE TO come to an officiating board. I came because I often have questions and through reading other threads tonight I've learned a lot: about calls, how games are called, why an official's perspective makes it hard to see all the angles sometimes, etc. This was the best place to ensure that in future games I understand calls being made.

So the next time I don't get an explanation on a call I know there's nothing that says I should - it's only a courtesy. Had I not come here I would have walked around misinformed - certainly, we want players and officials on the same page - more productive environment for all. I also thought this was a better place to have this discussion than during a game.

Cam, for the record, what is your perception of the quality of the officiating as a whole in your league, and do you know what the officials' qualifications are?

One thing is certain, many officials avoid all rec leagues, regardless of the money, which usually is less than what is paid at the high school level. This is true of all rec leagues, but adult rec leagues are indeed famous for being populated by guys who still think they can play when some never could. A seemingly innocent question such as yours, can easily escalate into a "No, I didn't," "Yes, you did," festival, which is something most officials try hard to avoid.

Having said all this, the law of supply and demand often kicks in. The "job interview" might contain questions like: Have you ever reffed before? Do you have a whistle? What time can you be here? Or even, "Hey, when your game is over, one of you guys wanna call the next one?"

THEN, sometimes when one "real official" shows up and finds out who his partner will be that day, let's just say it can be disheartening.

So, to summarize, if you got hit with an elbow, and you got tagged for the foul, and it was a horrible call, suffice to say, it could be worse.

I almost always find it silly that someone like yourself, has never officiated comes here and tries to debate with people that have officiated about what an official should or should not do. You were given an answer early on and you wanted to debate the issue instead of realizing that what people were telling you was spot on you insisted you had a right to some detailed explanation.

Even if you thought you did not foul the player, the official did so there is not much to debate about that fact. And in your games you are lucky if you get someone that did not buy their shirt from Target in the athletic section. You need to get a little perspective as to who would be at your games. You are not going to get D1 officials or former NBA guys working most of the time. :D

Peace

Not true.

Not true.

cam, I'm only going to add two things. 1, I thought your questions were pretty well laid out for a "layman." In spite of the fact that you've played at all levels, you are a layman when it comes to officiating.

2, putting the elbows above his shoulder level means nothing. That's perfectly legal.

3 (math used to be my strong point), it's not the "arc of the hips" that counts. I judge it by whether the torsoe is moving as far as the elbows. That, and swinging the elbows just looks different than pivoting. If I can't tell the difference, he's pivoting.

I wouldn't work an adult rec league if the league begged and offered 3X their normal rate. Not only do I have to deal with the players, I have to deal with partners who I wouldn't hire to work middle school games try to handle a bunch of whiny adults. I'll stay home, thanks.

I work HS varsity games (and I'll fill in at the JV level once in a great while if I'm asked to by a school that's treated me well in the past) and that's it. I know I'm not the only one who does this -- many of my regular partners do, too.

I'm perfectly happy with the insight everyone provided. Unfortunately, I think you could be right. I wish there was a quick and easy way to know if those who officiate our league have some training. If the situation is that which you just described I and my money would go elsewhere - still understanding that as you said, my chances are slim to none that I'll get someone with D1, NBA, maybe even high school level experience.

I've done rec leagues, and I can tell you if you had officials with the proper uniform (even if they were wearing shorts), you are doing well. You could always talk to the folks who run the league and ask them where they get the officials.

One more thought, you could always go one step further and figure out who to contact to start officiating some ball.

I've done rec leagues with DII officials.
It goes pretty smoothly.

I've thought about getting certified to start officiating BUT I'm afraid my work schedule would prevent me from making a solid commitment.

When any of you began the process what sort of schedule did you have?

I think you're right and I should just ask. All of the more competitive leagues here charge similar amounts. I'm sure there are some who employee untrained officials to make a bit more money. Now I'll have to rely on their honesty in telling me where they get their officials. Haha...we'll see how that works out!

Just tell them you're considering getting started officiating and want to know who assigns their officials.

I work days (7-4) and have a very supportive boss. When I worked nights, officiating wasn't an option for me as my nights off were reserved for family. If you live in a large enough metro area, there should be kiddy ball on weekends, mornings and evenings, that would be a good start.

:D I can imagine. If you have a good partner in these games, it makes all the difference.

The league was coming around nicely until, sadly, the girls went to the winter schedule.
We worked two 3-whistle games for that adult league.
Then we went out for beers and chow and chat.
I think we were paid $20/game and it was a nice change of pace in the middle of the week.

Terms are subject to change without notice.
 

bob jenkins: What's wrong with my description of excessive swinging? How would you describe it?

RULE 9 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s),
even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the
chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

Can't we all just get along? Guess not.
 

Unbelievable that on occasion players and coaches think that some referees have an attitude. With cooperation like this to a guy who comes on the board with an honest question, this problem should be solved any day now.

You must misunderstand the role of players. Their job is to play, not have a running debate with officials every time they think something did not go their way. And if I cared (or anyone cared) every time something we called what a player thought, we would change calls all the time. The last time I checked, players never foul and officials only call them for foul improperly. Either you do not understand how this world works or you are incredibly naive.

Peace

jamming the outlet pass
 

My only input is some technique. Hubie Brown teaches this, and everything Hubie teaches works...

Instead of arms held straight up and parallal to eachother, cross your arms at the wrists or slightly below, and spread your fingers out to better deflect and block vision. Put your X'd arms up in the outlet passers vision just like you would with parallal arms raised. The best thing about this technique is the elbow can't reach your face. Try it- have someone "chin" a basketball right in front of you, assume the X arms position and have them pivot & swing. Do it slowly with control so no one gets hurt. There elbows will still impact your forearms and/or wrists, but not your nose. :)

If they are real aggressive and try to throw the outlet over & through your hands, protect your fingers by making fists.

& for the record
 

I'm a HS coach and I don't feel that a referee ever owes me an explanation about a call. Coaches coach, players play, and referees make the calls.

If I were to recieve an explanation that would mean the game is actually delayed a little each time. If now the referee is offering explanations for calls whenever asked, the game is going to become slowed down by interruptions.

It's been my experience that when the clock is stopped at quarters, or half, or full time outs, if I begin with, "Can I ask a question..." and then ask a reasonable question in a non provoking manner, I always get a real answer. It might not be the answer I want to hear, but it's a real answer.

The problem is he starts with a wrong assumption
 

The original question is in part based on an incorrect assumption. There is no rule against a player raising their elbows above their shoulders while in possession of the basketball. When a player "rips" the ball overhead to get the ball on the other side of their body, their elbows go above their shoulders. Same as when a player holds the ball over their head to pass. The shooting motion requires the elbows to be raised above the shoulders.

I don't believe the case is so much that some referee's have an attitude, as it is more the case that everyone including sports officials have individual personalities. Some have pleasant dispositions, and some don't. Some don't have a lot of patience, especially in their house, which this sort of is.

I'd use the definition section.

Post office will not deliver without postage.
 

I believe that my description is easier for a nonoffical to understand. That's how we were taught what to look for twenty-eight years ago, when I was a rookie, and it was easy to understand.

We heard you the first time. :)

Use only in a well-ventilated area.
 

Just wanted to make sure that everybody was paying attention.