Why you don't do a 5 second count in your head
 

In my freshmen game last night, while trying to avenge our only loss of the year to our bitter rivals, we had a tough call go against us. We are tied and I call a TO with 21 seconds to go. I drew up our play and told my asst. that we have a TO left if we get in trouble or might have a 5 second count. My PG is dribbling and breaking in and out to interrupt a possible count. I am watching the trail official and he starts to count as we go into our play with 10 seconds left. He gets to "2" and blows his whistle and calls 5 seconds. I yell how you just started counting, and was only at 2. Well, we did win in OT, but later I talked to the other official whom I know about the game. He said, "I didn't question him, but said how they didn't like your 5 second count." His reply was, "ya, I had the first three seconds mentally, and only counted out the last two visually." After my blood pressure returned to normal, I said "please tell him why he cannot do that. Coaches will watch for the count in that situation and call a TO if they are getting close to 5."

I, as the varsity assistant, will tell our guards "no count, no count," and then "count started" when we are in that situation in a varsity game. They use me as a reference of if they need to start their dribble, pick it up, or pass the ball. So please, do not do part of a 5 count in your head at the end of a quarter especially!!!

I agree.

The official that made that this call was wrong, for exactly the reason you stated: coaches watch for this visual count and help their team out with it.

Just my 2 cents.

Not a tough call, it's a bad call. The official was incorrect in not showing his count. The ball handler and coaches need the officials to have a visible count, so they know where they stand. Fortunately, you guys did win the game.

Depending on an officials count is risky at best. officials are taught not to signal the number they are at, only that they are counting. In a close game the officials should have their hand moving during a 5 second count, but may count the first one before they move their hand, so you as a coach should be ready for that.

Many times the officials will be over 5 seconds when the call is made anyways.

Nonsense. I swing my arm five times EVERY TIME and ALL officials should do that, for the reasons listed above. If the arm doesn't swing for the first count, it didn't (and shouldn't) have happened.

Such poor officiating practice that is. In fact, the officials should ALWAYS have their hand moving, exactly like RichMSN said.

If I am covering a play, and I miss a beat, then that player effectively gets a 6-count, rather than only a visible 4-count. It also tells me that I need to re-focus and pay more attention.

That's exactly what happened to the T in the OP: he lost focus for at least three seconds.

I didn't that is how I do it!!!! I always count just like you do. But there are many officials that count like that. So it is not nonsense. I responded in way to say that you can not depend on every official following the rules.

You have a valid gripe. I believe the Fed would agree in that they added a signal last year (signal 12 on the chart) to clarify if a closely-guarded count has ended. They obviously mean for officials to convey closely guarded information visually for the benefit of all parties.

Yes, and that signal is also used if you want to clarify that there is no closely guarded situation yet, especially when you hear someone screaming 5 seconds, and they not close enough yet. I use it as a tool to stop the screaming mamie so I can have a clear head to count with!

When I first started officiating - an older official tried to teach me to do a 5 second count - out was 1, in was 2, out = 3, in = 4, out = 5, in = whistle. Only guy I ever saw do that and no - I never did.

My closely guarded 5 sec mechanic actually is 4 arm swings on the premise that there are a lot of 1 sec CG instances, so that first sec is in my head and then I start the arm on 2.

For those that say they do an arm on the first second, don't you find your arms in motion a lot then? I originally tried it that way and had a senior partner tell me to stop it and just count 1 in my head and then signal. Before that, my arms were getting tired from constantly being in motion.

SEE RICHMSN, there are many officials that do the mechanics different from the exact interpretation of the rules. My statement simply put, was " don't depend on the officials for the arm count, it is risky at best"

I think Fritz has something worth discussing here -- when it pertains to a 10-second count. If you're L and there's a shot and a rebound, you better be watching for contact, traveling, etc. -- so that it's almost natural that a second or two elapses after B does in fact secure the rebound and start back down court -- and your arm isn't flapping yet. Or is it consensus that B just gets that extra front-end tick or two before the count starts?

Or am I just getting too slow-reflexed in my old age?

Then in the off-season you need to practice your counts with 5-10lbs dumbells in your hand. Do 3-5 sets of 10 in front of a mirror. Mix in raising your hands to the sky with a 15-20lb dumbells.

In this case, yes, I will sometimes be to 2 in my head before I start my count.

It should be flapping. If it's not, then you're doing it wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

And they are dead wrong. Period.

I'd like to see them explain this to someone showing them a film a four arm swing.

And I will start a second or two later with "one." I think this is just as wrong as the closely guarded. Coaches look for this and I think they should. It's good coaching.

Agree to disagree on this one. I don't think in situations where there was a lot going on around the ball at the time of a change of possession that a coach is paying attention to when your arm motion started. They are usually focused on the action surrounding the ball. In the case of 5-second counts, the official and the ball-handler are the primary focus. In fact, I don't think a coach is ever focused on the number of strokes to 10 seconds. I've never received any grief for a 10-second violation, but half the time 5-second calls will get some kind of moaning and groaning, no matter how right the call is.

I coached for 8 years; 6 before I refereed. You're 100% wrong. Not all, but many coaches know exactly what the counting mechanic is, and how many times you've swung your arm.

Doesn't matter. The mechanic is to show your count. Just do the mechanic and be done with it.

What about 2-7-9?: The officials <B>shall</B> conduct the game according to the rules. This includes: ..."Silently and <B>visibly</B> counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules."

The rule book tells us we need to count in these instances. Only counting part of the time seems lazy. If we are not showing a count, then they are not closely-guarded. If I'm a coach, and I see a count start, I may want to request a TO when I see the official get to 4. If the official only gets to 3 and blows the whistle for the violation, we will probably be shooting FT's at the other end. :)

Without discussing what an officials should do, as per the rules book. any coach that depends on what an official is doing or counting is "risky at best". If all officials adheired to the rules book, then coaches could expect that 5 swings of the arm is 5 seconds.

I just think that many officials have varied techniques, that are not by the rules, especially in mid school games, and they should not be depended on

While you're right, it still does not absolve the officials of the responsibility to do it right. It's sort of like the 20 second substitution clock. You're supposed to have a horn after 5 seconds, but if you don't have that horn, can you call the T anyway?

Make Sure That All Visible Counts Are Really Visible ...
 

Every game, at every level, that we officiate nowadays is on tape, a game tape, a local community cable station, or some parent's cellphone. Every time we're supposed to show a visible count, we had better show it, either five chops, or ten chops. The days of using a mental count, and then continuing the visible chop at number two, or three, have long passed.

Interesting - I have always presumed that my count starts when my arm starts moving, and that doesn't start moving until I have established that the backcourt team has secured possession.

If that gives them an extra tick or two, oh well. But it goes both ways - count does not start until I decide that they are in control, and that is when my arm begins.

I am rather surprised that it could any other way, to be honest. Learn something new every day.

Hogwash, hogwash, hogwash. If you can't do two things at once, become the damn ballboy. The mechanic is simple. When the player is closely guarded, you begin the count with the proper extension of the arm. Each extension of the arm -- STARTING WITH THE NUMBER ONE -- counts toward the five count. While the "not closely guarded" signal is new to NFHS, the fact that we change arms and stop the count has been a mechanic forever.

Officials who do the first one or two counts "mentally" will NOT get to do high level games. I always looked at the official to see if he was counting. The mechanics manual tells us exactly what to do. Don't make excuses as to why you can't do it. Just practice it until you can watch for things like a travel, a bumping foul, a player control foul, etc. while extending the arm and counting.

Well there surely was a dumb bell doing the counting in the OP.

I missed the part where I said coaches don't know the mechanic. As I said, I have never had a problem with my 10-second counts being questioned by coaches; or observers, evaluators, and supervisors for that matter.

There's a big difference between the first 1-2 seconds of a backcourt count and the first 1-2 seconds of a 5-second closely guarded count.

Does Anybody Remember The Old Change Of Status Rule ???
 

I'll do the math: 10%-20%, versus 20%-40%.

Of course you can. I just had this come up not too long ago. The horn didn't blow at 5 and I had to instruct the timer to sound it at about 7 or 8 seconds....ended up having a T for not having a substitute. The rule is the coach gets 20 seconds to think about who to put in the game, not 15 seconds after the warning horn.

You're right, I can see how what I said may have been confusing. By rule, you can call the 5 second count even if you've done it all in your head. By mechanic, though, you'd better have a visible count.

Rule Versus Mechanic
 

Snaqwells: You're correct. At first I thought you were wrong, that the rule said the count had to be visible, but after I checked, I found that you were indeed correct. Good work.