Stealing the tap
 

I'm the R, 3-person crew.

Now, I know who's responsible for the jumpers, non-jumpers, etc. But I also know how high I toss a ball (and it's pretty high when the jumpers are 6'7") and when the ball is stolen 1/2 of the way up.

So I took the time it takes to bring my whistle up to my mouth and called the violation myself. U1 says I was so fast he didn't have time to call it, but again, I had my whistle down for the jump and I had to reach down, find my whistle, bring it up to my mouth....

Would you guys pass on that or make that call?

I duck my head and close my eyes when I toss so I wouldn't know. :D

Of course I would not pass on that call. Good call, imo. The reason is simple: the non-violating team knows the rule and didn't go after the ball illegally. Why should they be disadvantaged?

I also believe that the clock should be reset to 8:00.

Pass..........


"Every body Pauses and stares at me
These two teeth are gone as you can see
I don't know just who to blame for this catastrophe!
But my one wish on Christmas Eve is as plain as it can be!

All I want for Christmas
is my two front teeth,
my two front teeth,
see my two front teeth!

Gee, if I could only
have my two front teeth,
then I could wish you
"Merry Christmas."
It seems so long since I could"

This seems to be one of those situations, especially in 2-man where U has to watch 8 other guys, that R should definitely have the ability to intervene. Even if it's going to be a bit delayed. Get the call right -- right?

I personally have made it a rule to not whistle one of my own jumps dead.

Why?

The one time I did - it took 2 more jumps for the players to get it right....

If my partners don't get it, I'm going to trust them. My judgement is a little off when I'm underneath the ball and trying to not get hit by the two guys/gals going for it.

I don't. The timer is to properly start the clock on the U1's chop or when the tossed ball is tapped, if the U1 fails to chop in time correctly.

The timer properly stops the clock when the R sounds his whistle and calls a violation.

What timing error occurred? The game action was properly timed.

We tell Referees to not have the whistle in your mouth for safety reasons. If the R ends up the one to blow this dead, then the Referee needs to take action that is different than the accepted practice of keeping the whistle in the mouth. Why should the players be denied the full playing time because of a mechanic? Granted it's likely only a second or two, but it's more of a perception thing.

When a throw-in occurs, and B first touches the ball by kicking it, do you start the clock, then stop the clock immediately?

When on a missed FT, the ball goes to a rebounder, who is then whistled for a violation, and you're the calling official for both the clock starting and the violation, do you start the clock, then stop the clock immediately?

Hmmm....
 

I had a similar situation earlier this week. FB game, I was R. I thought the V stole the tap and my U let it go. At first dead ball, I asked him about it and he said it was close but he passed. If I was the U I would have blown it dead.

What is the mechanic for the violation of "stealing the tap?"

Open hand, "Violation [color]"...I would then verbalize the illegal touch...Point.

Then make sure the arrow is pointing the correct way.

-Josh

It's a jump ball violation. I simply pointed in the direction of the play and gave a throw-in location. I may have pointed at the player and verbalized the call, although that gym was so loud I was probably talking to myself. I couldn't even hear the JV guys' whistles (of course they were using pea whistles and not blowing them correctly, but that's another story). I did make sure the arrow was set properly. Probably the first time I ended up being the center after tossing the opening jump.

To answer the time question, it wasn't legally tapped -- by "stealing it" I meant (as many assumed) that it was tapped on the way up. To me, this means the clock never should've started. I didn't put time back, though, and this thread is really the first time I thought about it. It's the first jump I've called a violation on in about 3 years or so, but it was so egregious I simply couldn't let it go. I understand the people here who said "let it go," but I didn't want the game to start that way.

Upon reconsideration, I think that you might have a good point.
Sorry that this is a bit long, but I found the logic and reasoning to be thought provoking.

The NFHS has not clearly defined most of these situations with case book plays since adding the word "legally" to the timing rules governing the first touching of a ball in situations in which the clock is stopped. They have only provided a couple of examples and we must make our decisions in all other cases based upon what we know from those.

There are two distinct situations that we need to consider. I grouped them as follows based upon the language used by the NFHS while commenting on the touching of AP throw-ins following the recent rule change.
1. Those in which the manner in which the ball is first touched is an illegal contact. (Kick or fist)
2. Those in which the touching itself is legal, but the player is infringing some other rule at the same time. (OOB or BI or jumpball provision)

At this point the above seemed to be a proper division of the possible actions for the timing restart rules. I reasoned that whether the clock starts or not, it should behave in the same manner for all cases which fall into each categories. Yet when I examined further it seems that I discover that there is something deeper at work here, and began to think that perhaps the above two categories are not the right ways to classify these plays.

In the first classification (illegal body contact with the ball--kick or fist), the NFHS has made it clear that the touching is illegal and thus the clock should NOT be started, per case book play 4.42.5. If the timer does start the clock, then a timing mistake has occurred and the referee should correct this error if he has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

In the second type of case (body contact legal, but some other rule infringed), the NFHS has clarified that it considers the touch to be legal in the AP throw-in ruling, per 2007-08 Interp Sit#3. The example given was a player being the first to touch a throw-in pass while standing on the OOB line. The violation is not for the manner in which the ball was contacted, but rather the position of the player. The NFHS has clarified that this is not a throw-in violation, but an OOB violation. Therefore, the clock should start on the touch and stop immediately upon the sounding of the whistle by an official. Some time can come off here if the official is slow on making the OOB call.

Now to your two most recent examples:
A. A kick on the first touch of a throw-in. The clock should NOT start. If the throw-in is an AP throw-in the arrow will be retained by the throwing team. (Look at the difference if the throw-in is contacted by an OOB player in a normal manner. The throw-in was legally completed and the arrow is lost. Therefore, the event gets timed.)

B. The FT restart when the first touch is by a rebounder who touches the ball normally, but also somehow violates (most likely by touching OOB). It seems that like the OOB violation, this must be a timed event, if the touching itself was legal. Of course, if a FT violation was committed, then the touching would be preceded by that and the clock doesn't start.

Now I returned to the tap of the jumpball. The rule states that the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched by one of the jumpers. (5-9-2) (Another recent wording change in a rule.) Yet there is also a rule that neither jumper shall touch the tossed ball before it reaches its highest point. (6-3-7a) At this point, I thought that like the OOB violation this should be a timed event, but had an unsatisfied feeling about my conclusion.

So, in order to decide if the clock should start, I really made a concerted effort to try to decide if manner in which the tap was touched was legal or not. I found myself tracking down a very fine line and making a delicate argument based upon the situations that the NFHS has so far provided.

I believe that a clear principle can be extracted if we ask the following question: Can a player legally touch the ball while it is in that location? The location of the ball, not the location of the player, seems to me to be what is paramount. I concluded that if the answer is yes, then the clock should start. If the answer is no, then the clock should not be started.

So, now applying this principle to these situations we get:
A. Throw-in while standing on an OOB line. Ball position is legal. A player jumping from inbounds could touch it there. Result: Clock starts and then stops. This is a timed event.

B. Missed FT and the rebounder commits BI while first touching the ball. There is a rule stating that the ball may NOT be touched while in this location. Result: Clock should not be started. This is an untimed event.

C. Jumpball toss tapped before reaching its highest point. There is a rule stating that the ball may NOT be touched while in this location. It must first go somewhere else and then return. Result: Clock should not be started. This is an untimed event.

Therefore, I rescind my earlier disagreement. ;)

PS It would really be nice if a priest would come visit and exercise the spirit of MTD Sr. from my body. :D

Your post was different. Not once did you invoke the spirit of J. Dallas Shirley or talk about women's college basketball in the 1970's. :D

By the way, Rich, I agree with penalizing for stealing the tap. It is a clear violation that provides an advantage the vast majority of the time and should not be ignored. There is no reason that I can think of which could be given as a good justification for passing on this, short of the ball immediately going to the opponent who is able to establish clear control.

Exercise your body, exorcise a spirit. ;)

What if the spirit is simply out of shape?

Your reasoning/thought process and most of your conclusions (:)) are very much the same as I've had with my local colleagues.

I do disagree that time should come off the clock if A2 is OB and is the first to touch the ball after the TI release. (Not sure of your stance of this one.) Since the first touch and A2 being OB happened simultaneously, logic dictates that no time can come off the clock, since there was no time in which A2 was not OB after touching the ball.

If an interp is needed, then so be it. In practice, I do not start the clock in these cases.

Re: your sitches A, B, and C, I agree with them all if I read them correctly. (I might be misinterpreting A though.)

That's right -- almost like a delayed violation on the non-shooting team during FTA. Who cares if R has to dig for his whistle and takes a few seconds to call the early steal on the toss? That is the only thing he is clearly looking at so he can, and should be able to, call it with more clarity than U.

Again, this is more of an issue with 2-man. But the player who steals it on the way up probably has made a habit of it, and often his team also has probably learned to quickly profit from it (illegally yet probably with impunity). T'ain't right.

A few years ago in Iowa I had a sophomore boys team three games in a row (away, home, away) by a scheduling fluke. First one they caught me off guard by stealing the tip and I flat out missed it. Next game I nailed them (I was U) for it; it helped to be expecting it.

Third game, they didn't try it; but we had a fight at the end.

I hope you didn't award 16 free throws.

LOL. Nah, but I did screw them up a bit; but not enough to affect the outcome of the game.

Must have been a little off your game that night.

Your first fight will do that.

Would pass as the R in this sitch. To me it is similar to being in Lead trying to get a goaltending/basket interference.

It's not at all similar.

For GT/BI, the lead is SUPPOSED to be looking elsewhere. Tell me, what other responsibility is the R passing on when making this call?

"We've got spirit, how bout you?"

"Ours is stronger because we exercise it!"

Thank you. :o