Opinions wanted
 

GV game, hack fest. Visitors (B) have been behind the whole game. We're in the last minute of the game. A couple of players from team B have already fouled out. A has the ball and is up by about 8 points. B1 puts two hands on A1's back and gives a small push---not enough to be dangerous, but enough to displace her. I call the intentional foul and report, notify B1 and B's coach that B1 has fouled out. B's coach, who has been vocal all night, can't believe the call. I explain and ask for the sub. Meanwhile, I hear a loud bang off to my right. Apparently, B1 has stormed out of the gym and loudly hit or kicked something. Neither my partner nor I see this, but it's clear what happened. B1's sub comes in and we line for FTs. I'm standing near the table, and I hear B's coach talking to B1 (who has come back into the gym, I guess) that it was inappropriate to act the way she did even if "the ref made a bullcrap call."

I have no doubt that the intentional was the right call. My questions:

1) Do you give a T to B1 for her unsportsmanlike act even though you didn't see it?

2) Do you give a T to the coach for his comment to B1?

Any other comments?

Well shouldn't non calling official be the one to tell coach and player they have fouled out ?

In our area thats how it's suppose to be done. Same philosophy as getting away after a T.

#1. Probably pass unless partner saw it then he needs to go get it.

#2. If coach/player and me were the only ones to have heard it I'm not sure. For me it's HTBT but I know for sure if anyone else heard other then us I got a T..

Your mileage may vary.

We pregamed this and had the option of notifying ourselves or asking partner to do it.

1) Do you give a T to B1 for her unsportsmanlike act even though you didn't see it? Nope. If you don't see it, don't give one. However, if it was so loud and blatant that the entire gym knew what happened . . . you may be able to swing it. Be careful though. Also of note, since the coach was notified, she is now bench personnel, which means what you give to the player now goes to the coach as well (indirect). Bet the coach gets the point then. ;)

2) Do you give a T to the coach for his comment to B1? I would leave it alone. Don't have rabbit ears. JMO

Curious as to why you would do this ?

We give the calling the official the option. I almost always handle it myself if I'm the calling official.

Why ? Is it a expediency thing or what ? Having the off call official notify seems to lessen the chance of whatever happening happening .

This is the part I can't believe....

:rolleyes:

It's our philosophy that the simple act of someone fouling out, in and of itself, should not automatically present a contentious interaction with the coach.

We leave it to the calling official to gauge the temperature of the situation.

I agree. If they're just "fouling to stop the clock" (and I don't mean that it's an intentional foul), then let the calling official handle it.

If it's a controversial call on the star at a key point in the game, let someone else handle it.

Same philosophy here. I do not see the big deal. If I called the foul, running away does not look very strong or confident. I have never had to give a T as a result of a player fouling out and I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

Peace

I am curious - could a pushing foul not have been called in this situation instead of the intentional? From your description you made it sound minor and although there was displacement was there an intent to just straight out push her opponent in a malicious way? I guess there is a need to be there situation for me.

Two hands in the back is not a "legitimate attempt to directly play the ball or a player." An act doesn't have to be malicious to be intentional. There is a fine line between a "minor" push and a push that puts the fouled player at risk for injury. I will always call this play an intentional foul.

From our mechanics manual:

DISQUALIFIED PLAYER:
- Calling official will notify partner that the player has five fouls.
- Calling official will notify the player that she has five fouls.
- Calling official will notify the coach that it is the player’s fifth foul and a substitute is necessary.
- - When the substitute reports, she must enter the game immediately.
- If the coach does not have a substitute ready to report, the calling official will tell the clock operator to start timing 20 seconds with the 1st horn sounding at 15 seconds and the 2nd horn sounding at 20 seconds.

A delay of game DIRECT Technical Foul shall be addressed to the head coach if the player has not been replaced after 20 seconds.

(Note:) The calling official always has the option to go opposite the table have her partner administer the substitution if she feels an adversarial situation has or could occur. (Discuss this thoroughly in your pre-game conference.)

My opinions:

1. When you see that the fould-out-player has left the gym, you tell the coach that she needs to return to the bench, rules require her to remain in the gym.

2. The coach is losing for a reason: He hasn't even taught his players what constitutes a really stupid act by a player with four fouls. For him to tell the player quietly that this is a "bullcrap" call, just shows that he's an idiot. Late in the game, he's not gonna win no matter what, no one else heard him, meh...

3. If others hear, and he's really showing you up, you just gotta get it.

The manual needs to be revised. It needs to indicate when the official should tell the timer to start the clock.

Remain In The Gymnasium ???
 

Which rules? NFHS? State sports governing body? League, or conference? School district? Citation please.

NFHS 10-1-4 seems to refer to a team, not an individual player: A team shall not fail to occupy the team member’s bench to which it is assigned.

Huh? It says that the official tells the timer to start the clock if the coach doesn't have a sub ready to report.

Shouldn't it be:

- Notify coach
- Have timer start clock, one horn at 5 (Not 15), one more at 20
- Notify player of their fifth foul

Of course if they already have a sub sitting at the table, then you obviously don't need to have the timer start the clock.

DQ'd players are not allowed to leave the bench area without adult supervision.

Per an NFHS POE from a couple of seasons ago.

But that is not under our jurisdiction. If the coach sends the player to the lockerroom, we don't go check to see if an adult is with them.

I always wonder why so many people make all the timing situations so much more complicted than they need to be.

In basketball, as opposed to soccer, all clocks count DOWN!!! As such, they start at some number (60,30, or 20) and ALL timers have a warning horn at 15 remaining and expire at 0. Keep it simple.

Isn't that so much simpler than saying the horn is at 5 on a DQ, at 15 on a 30 second timeout, and at 45 on a 60 second timeout???

Citation Please ???
 

I know that officials are no longer allowed to eject a player to the locker room, as we did many, many years ago. I just can't seem to find a written citation that does not allow a player to leave the court, or a coach to send a player off the court, with, or without an adult escort, pertaining to a player who may, or may not have fouled out, or may, or may not have been ejected. Written citation please.

Note: I do think I remember a ruling where officials are rarely allowed to send a player, who continues his unsporting conduct after being disqualified, or ejected, to the locker room with an adult. Did I dream this?

I'm tempted to just give you the cite, but I think you'll learn more if I just tell you that it's in the case book under rule 10.

So I Wasn't Dreaming, But ...
 

10.5 SITUATION: (a) The head coach is charged (directly or indirectly) with a third technical foul, or a second direct technical; or (b) A1 commits a flagrant technical foul against B1. RULING: In (a), the coach shall leave the vicinity or the playing area and have no further contact with the team. The official has no option and may not set aside the provision which requires removal. This also applies to all adult bench personnel who receive two technical fouls. In (b), the flagrant technical foul disqualifies A1 from further participation in the contest. A disqualified team member or student bench personnel shall go to or remain on the bench. However, in an unusual situation, an official has the authority to require that these individuals who have committed a flagrant technical foul must leave the vicinity of the court. This action is necessary when permitting such offenders to remain at courtside would tend to incite the crowd, to incite the opponents, or to subject the officials, opponents or others administering the game, to unsporting harassment. In such circumstances, the official should require the individual who has committed a flagrant foul to leave the vicinity of the court with an adult supervisor. It must be emphasized that an official does have this authority, when the circumstances resulting from any flagrant foul warrant it. (10-5 Note)

Thanks bob jenkins. So now I know that I didn't dream the part about rarely ejecting the player to the locker room with an adult supervisor.

How about my original question? What if a team member, disqualified, ejected, or still eligible, decides, on his own, without any input from an official, to go and "cool off" in the locker room, with no adult supervisor? Or what if the coach, again, without the input of an official, decided to send him there, for that reason, or for that matter, any reason, maybe punishment? Do NFHS rules prohibit this? And, again, as usual, citation please.