5 Second Count question
 

Do we suspend the 5 second count/closely guarded count when the player starts his/her drive to the basket? Lets say we have the count going out top and we get to 3 with the player dribbling in place. He then makes a move toward the rim with his defender right on his hip.

Do we suspend the count?

What is the criteria for stopping the count assuming the defender is still closely guarding the player with the ball?

Here's a hint:

http://www.thefreecenter.com/wp-cont...shoulders2.jpg

Head and shoulders by the defender ASFAIK.

The way I've always interpreted it is that if the ballhandler makes an obvious move towards the basket, then I stop counting. If he takes one step, or takes a slow step without really making an effort, then I keep counting.

If he gets his head and shoulders past the defender, the counts ends.

Dammit! Mark you're quick!

There is no "suspension" of a 5-second count, detention maybe.

Seriously though, if your count ends then you to have start all over again, you don't resume where you left off.

That's the kind of answer that both makes me laugh and one that will stick with me.

Thanks

A buddy of mine asked me if in college the rule counts if the person with the ball penetrates the 28 foot line.

??

This is incorrect. The defender can stay with the offensive player and mainting his guarding position. The count will continue. You can even have a 5 second violation on a drive to the hoop. The only way the count ends is if the offensive players gets head and shoulders PAST the defender or if the defender loses his legal guarding position or if he backs up more than 6 feet.

Is there an NFHS rule or interpretation that says this? I don't have a rulebook handy. The NCAA rulebook doesn't say anything about this.

You sound like my wife. :o

What you need to find is the rule or interp that says you suspend the count if they're driving to the basket. As long as all the requirements are being met by the defense, you continue your count.

I'm curious, where does it say that when the defender loses LGP the count stops?

More importantly, once LGP is gained, what can he possibly do to lose it?

He can contact the opponent from the side....:)

Wouldn't the count be over by that point?

In the Fed rules, its stated under the definition of closely guarded in rule 4.

Spence that rule left the court in the 80's and I hope it never returns! The only reason now that we have the 28' line is for coaching boxes at all levels of nfhs and ncaa.

...And for warmups, ... and a starting place that a Trail can find. :)

I believe that the requirement is the defender must be within 6 feet (measuring nearest foot to nearest foot). It does not matter whether the offensive player retreats to get more than 6 feet of space or if the defending retreats to give more than 6 feet of space.

yes that too, but i assumed that could be inferred by what i typed.

And a defender can lose his LGP by a quick move and the defender falls, offense gets his head and shoulders past the defender, defender and offensive player move to the same position and collide at the same time, I would put this contact on the defense all the time.

If the defender falls, I'm not stopping my count. There is no rule basis for that (unless the dribbler goes past the prone defender).
And where does it say a defender who has fallen has lost his LGP?

With the defender on the floor, I could not rationalize continuing the count.

I disagree here. I do think lying prone on the ground is NOT playing defense. No count from me.

So a player falls due to balance (a great move, if you want) and immediately gets up. You're starting a new count?

No, that was an old rule that has since been removed.

Yes I am. LGP ended when the defender fell, once he re-establishes himself I will restart.

You can argue that if the defender falls to the floor he/she is no longer continuously guarding the ball-handler.

You could argue that, and I would go with it if he stays there. If he makes an immediate, continuous attempt to get up, he's playing defense the whole time.

Where does it say LGP is required for a 5 second count?

And you are welcome to view it that way. But once the defender falls, he lost LGP. Why should I penalize the offensive player for his higher level of skill?

Where does it say LGP is required for a 5 second count?

A player is not continusously guarding an offensive player if he doesn't have LGP.

Because by your interpretation then the offensive player beating the defender shouldn't matter at well.

However, As An Official, Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey Eh, Goodbye ...
 

The 28 foot line, inbounds, on the court, is no longer required according to the Court Diagram at the beginning of the NFHS Rulebook. Coaching box lines should be out of bounds.

When I was coaching middle school, I used those 28 foot lines to teach my players how to properly fill lanes on the fast break. Players filling the left, and right, side lanes were supposed to actually touch the 28 foot line, or they got an "earful" from me. As a coach, I was sorry to see them go.

9.10.1 SITUATION C: Team A has the ball in its own frontcourt. B1 stands within
6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line. RULING:
In five seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1
has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the court, facing the opponent, no
other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual
body position of the player is irrelevant.

So INITIAL LGP is required, but I don't know of anything requiring that LGP be maintained. In fact, this very case book play seems to indicate the opposite. Especially important is the part about the actual body position not being relevant. Yet it isn't clear exactly what that means. One could take it that the defender can fall down, sit down, or even lie down and the closely-guarded count should continue or one could read the play to say that there are two and only two requirements which must be met--both feet on the court and facing the opponent. If either of those requirements ceases, then the count ends.

I'm inclined to read it in the first manner as forcing the defender to keep both feet on the court is clearly silly. The defender has to be allowed to move and even jump.