Shot Clock Backcourt Violation
 

2 person crew.

Off of a maid basket team B is pressing hard, all 10 players are in the backcourt. Trail is watching closely for legal screens, etc. Lead is helping at half court.

The shot clock gets to 24 and the lead calls a 10 second back court violation. Is this correct for lead to make this call? Is it like 3 seconds a responsibility for both officals?

No it is not correct.

For one the time team control was started has nothing to do with when the shot clock starts. You could get to 20, or even 5 have team control was not started (technically, but not likely).

Peace

I couldn't imagine it being proper.

How do you know that the shot clock was started correctly? The mechanic is the Trail's count is the official count, correct? Why go against that?

Obviusly a women's game - clue? "maid basket"

You are saying an example would be if the inbound pass was touched by the defense, the shot clock starts but the back court count doesn't start until there is team control?

Yep, or there was no control by the in-bounding team when the ball was touched on the in-bound pass.

Peace

But (two big "ifs" coming here. . .) IF you know that control was gained immediately and IF you know the shot clock started properly, then when the shot clock shows 24, a violation has occurred. Somebody needs to call it. If the Trail's count is off because he/she is concentrating on the backcourt pressure, the Lead should make the call.

I have no problem with the Lead making the call here.

I have a huge problem with the lead calling this. For one the count of the officials is the only thing that matters. No where under common rules but the NBA says the clock is not the judge of this call? The Lead making this call might only know what the clock says, but might not know other factors as to why there is not violation. The someone that needs to call this is only the trail. Would you promote the same thing without a shot clock?

Peace

The shot clock is what makes this sit interesting.

You could say the same thing for a 3 second violation. The lead is watching the paint and is looking for advantage/ disadvantage. By rule the trail has the right to make a 3 second call.

Three seconds and 10 second back court are two different things. Would you have the lead call a 5 second count that the Trail has started a count near the division line?

Peace

I might I am kind of a call hog!

There are so many interesting situations and how each of us would handel them.

shot clock should not start until there is team control. Big rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Team control exists during a throw in in NCAA and does not in NFHS. We do not have shot clock in HS and I assume they use the team control part of the rule. The game clock and shot clock should start independent of each other.

Reference please??

Peace

24 back court
 

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court? I presume the trail has the on ball match-up -So if the lead is watching that match-up to and the clock the others could be running amuck.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here, now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )
NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

So the shot clock starts when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? Not quite.

Right, but if the "defense" touches the ball, the "offense" is not in team control at that moment now are they?

The team control foul in NCAA Rules, is to allow or FTs not to be shot and award a team control foul.

BTW, NCAA 9-10 says:

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.


There are no shot clock rules for the NF. That is not an approved rule.

Peace

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

I did not say it had to be just the "offensive player that touches" starts the game clock or shot clock. That is your claim. But starting the clock and the starting of the ten second count is not the same thing. And you did not show any rule that suggested the situation was simultaneous.

Peace

Doesn't the violation take place when the shot clock shows 25 (IF the 2 items above are present)?

9-10...An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

If you called the violation when the clock shows 24 then 11 seconds have expired. The violation takes place when the count is equal to 10 seconds. This is different from a throw-in. A throw-in violation occurs when the count is greater then 5 seconds (not equal to 5 seconds):

4-67-5...A thrower-in shall have five seconds from receiving disposal of the ball to release the throw-in. The throw-in count shall end when the ball is released by the thrower-in so that the ball goes directly into the playing court.

The 3 second rule is the same as the throw-in (> 3 seconds):

4-9 Art. 1...A player shall not be permitted to have any part of his or her body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his or her front court.

Yes, but I said 24 because that was the situation in the original post of this thread.

1)Team control is established, is when the shot clock should start for all situations, there is team control on an inbound in NCAA, so the clock starts on the legal touch on the floor of an inbound pass, however, the ten second count does not start until there is established player control by a team in their backcourt. So several seconds may have elapsed off the shot clock before the ball is controlled by the inbounding team in their backcourt so 24 would not be accurate as a guidline or a backcourt violation.

2) No team control on a throw in in NFHS, so the assumption would be that the shot clock would not start until the ball is in someones team control - then the shot clock migt be in sink with the 10 second count. However, the lead shouldn't be watching the ball that closely and make a call at 24.

Someone from California or a federation shotclock state step up and establish the parameters when the clock tarts on an inbound pass.

Why would you say this? :confused: The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. ;) )

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

You said heavy press the trail's primary match-up is the ball and the nearest defenders. The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court? The lead has to be as deep as the deepest players. So if everyone is in the back court the scenario might work, but at 34 on the shot clock the Lead still needs to make he call.


So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO


I am still not making the call at 34 seconds - too close I am going to give my partner a chance to make the call because that is who is designated the responsibility by the officials manuals, and if it is close I really do not want to open that can -O - worms

Yes I was being sarcastic, my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.
If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job. if you look up and the ball is clearly in the back court and the clock reads 31 then there may be an issue for you to blow your whistle. But IMHO the lead should not make a backcourt call based on the shot clock at 34 or 20 seconds because there are problems in the crew if that happens.

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? :confused: If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

I would not advocate the Lead calling this ever. If they are calling this or looking for this, they are not watching their responsibilities. They have other things to watch and they do not know if the ball was started properly and the NCAA Casebook even has a play where the clock was not started correctly. And if the Trail is distracted, they need not be on the game. Their main job is to watch the ball count and make sure there is a violation. If they cannot do that, you do not need a Trail in this situation.

This would be about as silly as a Lead calling a BC violation while on the end line.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have never heard anyone at the college level advocate such craziness.

Why not have other officials start calling other official's lines? After all they might have knowledge of what happen. Let us throw out all the mechanics, because officials see things they think they know? ;)

Peace

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same

Why? There is team control and the ball is in the backcourt....the count is on. It doesn't require player control inbounds since team control began during the throwin. The shot clock and the 10 count start the moment the ball is touched and it is a violation when the clock shows 25/24 (depending on the clock).

NCAA:
MEN: 10 second count begins once team control is established INBOUNDS.
Women: there is no time limit in the backcourt
For both men and women, when play is restarted with a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is first touched inbounds. When play is restarted from a FT or a jumpball, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control. Following an unsuccessful try for goal, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control.

NFHS:
The backcourt count starts once team control is established.

There is no shot clock rule. A few states have instituted one on their own without the approval of the NFHS. These states have to write their own rules for the operation of the shot clock. Most of them simply follow the NCAA rule.

34 should have read 24 typing error sorry.

what Nevada said
the count begins once team control is established inbounds that can not happen until a player from the in bound team gains control in the back court,
the shot clock however started once the ball was touched there is the difference and why 24 is not a good number in this scenario.

Because the NCAA rule specifically says "inbounds player."

"An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds."

The official is not to begin the 10 second count until AN INBOUNDS PLAYER has established control of the ball.

Yes position is a relevant point to any call made by an official on the court. we talk about moving to be in position to make the call all of the time.
if the ball is near the mid-court line with the clock a 24/20 and the lead makes a backourt call from the front court baseline with their partner right with the play, there is a problem and I would believe that most assignors - reviewers will have a problem with the lead making that call with 24/20 seconds on the shot clock


It isn't hard, and most do it all the time, even with intense matchups - but looking at the clock and watching the ball out of your primary to make a 10 second call at almost exactly 10 seconds is the problem.
it gives a horrible impression about the crew.

I am failrly good with my counts :D but I use the count, not the clock because the rules say that the official is responsible to
ART. 9 . . . Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.
It also says for ten seconds - but 20% on 10 seconds based on what I have seen over the years is pretty good. again the lead making that call at 24 is too close.


The clock isn't telling anyone anything - noone but the trail official knows when that count started, and if you step in and make that call at 24/20 seconds it is too close.
I am not saying that the lead can not help their partner out on this call - what I am saying is that the lead should not do it at almost exactly 10 seconds, it needs to be blatantly obvious to everyone in the gym that 10 seconds has elapsed and my partner missed it.

just a quick point on this particular comment,
drive to the basket opposite side by A1 who is bumped slightly by B1 (primary defender). the whistle comes in from the trail at mid court table side before the ball leaves A1's hand. Yes it is different in that it is judgement on the contact, but unless B1 is lying on the floor that isn't a call I want to see the trail make from mid-court, and especialy before the ball leaves the shooters hands. If you come that far for a call out of your primary it had better be the 600 lb gorrilla in the room.
Calling a backcourt violation at exactly 10 seconds by the shot clock (right or wrong) as the lead on a play is not a good call IMHO - if you wait until it is 12 seconds then maybe you have to go get it.

In Maryland, the girls play with a shot clock. As a result, there is no 10 second backcourt count and there is no closely gaurded count either in the backcourt. The 30 second shot clock starts when the ball is controlled by a team and ends/is reset when the ball has either gone through the basket, hits the rim on a tap or a try, a foul is committed, there is a turnover, or a violation is committed by the defense (kicked ball being the obvious one).

Sometimes as the trail you get the feeling your not doing anything because you're not "hashing anything off" while the ball is in the backcourt.

While that may be the wa they want it, that is NOT what the rule says.
The fact that an inbounds player touches the ball that is in team control makes it an inbounds player (and his team) in control.

The INBOUNDS player part is merely to indicate that the count doesn't start until it is touched inbounds even though there is team control during the throwin.

Based on this case play I think you may have a point.

A.R. 203. (Men) The game clock indicates that 1:13 is left in the second half when Team A makes a throw-in after a charged timeout. Team A is charged with a 10-second back-court violation, but the game clock shows that only eight seconds were used. The official timer indicates that the game clock started when the throw-in was touched by a player on the playing court.

RULING: Violation. Team B shall be awarded a throw-in at a
designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred. Rule 2-12 does not provide for the correction of an error made in the referee’s counting of seconds. (Rule 9-10 and 7-5.1)

Why would they state that the "game clock started when the throw-in was touched by a player on the playing court"? This implies that the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched by a player on the court.

ergh I would like to see this cleared up. Maybe the rule book isn't clear about it because I have definitely seen 10 violations called with the count starting once the ball has been touched without control.

I do not need anything cleared up. I have never read a rule that says the shot clock is tied directly to the 10 second count. Until then, the rule is the same as at the high school level.

Peace

all right, I will do the 10 second count once there is control inbounds. Continue the count even if the ball is loose after the initial control. It would be good if there was something more clear in the rule book but of course there are a bunch of things.

No it does not - it implies (correctly) that the game clock starts when the ball is touched on the inbounds pass - it also implies that the official counts really fast. other than that it doesn't tell you much, that touch could have been a pass to a teammate of the thrower.

this case play only deals with the fact that if an official's count is off it is not something that can be corrected.

Good Point