Chastised for double T on Coach
 

1st T: on a 1/1 FT, he is standing behind me (lead, administering) whispers "Idiot." WHACK!.....As I am reporting, and returning to administer T FTs, he asks "What's that for?" I tell him, "I heard the idiot comment, Coach." He immediately jumps back with "You need to learn how to officiate. You're the worst ref I've ever seen!" So I whacked him again, and tossed him. First T's of the year. After faxing in my report, and making a verbal telcal, the next day the State High School office advises that I need to slow down on the second T, and get some distance (which I agree with and try to do) and that I need to swallow my whistle and have a deaf ear (which I don't buy, but I can support their position and philosophy, if so mandated.) I just don't see that the NFHS rules supports that the Coach gets a "free shot" at me once he has earned the first T. Short of the F-Bomb, leave him alone, I was told. Again, I agree you need to give him some room and distance, and time, but I felt his comments were too unsportsmanlike, and in front of the kids. How wrong was I?

"That's impossible. Do you know what the odds are against the worst ref and the worst coach working the same game?" :D

I am NOT quick enough....If I had thought of that, he wouldn't have gotten the 2nd T!

My first thought.
 

... was the old joke:

REWARD

LOST DOG

Has 3 legs

Blind in left eye

Missing right ear

Tail broken

Accidentally neutered…

Answers to the name “Lucky”.

Whoever the person was from your state office that told you that needs a good, swift kick in the nuts. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/nutkick.gif


You did great! :) The coach misbehaved and you properly penalized it. If it happens again, handle it the same way and to hell with that spineless, coach-loving wimp in your state office. :mad:

You can take the court with me anytime.

Slow Down ??? How About 767.58 mph ??? Is That Slow Enough ???
 

As a former middle school coach, I have thicker skin than most officials. I've only given out two, or three, technicals to head coaches in the past four, or five, years, but the actions of this coach in my game would have earned him a seat in the locker room. The second technical would have happened as fast of the speed of sound, the time it took for his statement to reach my ears, plus the time it took the sound of the whistle to reach the table. The slowest part of this entire sequence would have been if I had happened to be inhaling, instead of exhaling, when I wanted to put air in the whistle.

I would tell the state office thanks for their advice and never report anything to them again.

You did good, although I'm trying to understand how he could be behind you when you're the lead administering.

BTW, when the coach said that to you, as your partner I would've been ejecting him right with you so that when we filed the report we could say that each official gave one of the technical fouls. There is this incredibly stupid notion that the caller of the first T should disappear and not call a second warranted T, which I find stupid at face value, but there's always ways around people like this. (I've only ejected 2 coaches in 22 years, both subvarsity, both of them before 1995, but I've made a lot of baseball coaches disappear.)

RichMSN said....."You did good, although I'm trying to understand how he could be behind you when you're the lead administering."

He wasn't behind me (on the endline), but on the sideline, just outside of his box...I come quite a ways off the free throw lane to get a view after bouncing the shooter the ball....he was feet behind me there.

And thanks to all for your thoughts.....again, I try to get distance but this time it didn't work....thanks, again....

A-freaking-men!

You penalize the act. If the act deserves a technical foul, just call the damn thing without calling in Dr. Phil to give you some advice. It's just another call anyway.

Part of our job is having to deal with these situations when they arise. Deal with them in the way that you think best suits the the situation. If that means issuing a "T", so be it.

I have no problem with the second T.

I'm not so sure I would have called the first one.

Also, why did you go back to L after the first T?

I headed back to administer the T's....My partner should have been enroute to "seatbelt" the coach, but wasn't...I should probably have stayed deaf and let him hit him with the 2nd T.

Why not the first T? You think he gets a pass for calling me an idiot in front of his bench?

Bishop,
You indicated that these were your first T's of the year. Have you ever ejected anyone before (requiring you to complete the paperwork and fax it in)? If the answer is no, I am guessing that you may have gotten the "form letter" that they send all "newer" officials who call both T's on a coach resulting in an ejection. If the answer is that you have several ejections to your credit over the years -- IGNORE the rest of this post!!!

The ideal situation is each T is called by a different official -- this makes the discussion go more smoothly for the association. After all, it wasn't just ONE official who had a problem with the coach, it was TWO.

For the general case, call the T and get away from the coach. OK, makes sense. For the general case, your partner(s) should have your back side covered. OK, fair enough.

I sense that is why you got the response that you did. Had a more experienced official (read as official who has been around for a long time and has handled a number of ejections over the years) made the report that you did, I sense they would have gotten a different response.

We can learn from every situation. Many of your fellow officials have jumped behind your decision in this case. Take that support to heart. After you have several more write-ups to your credit, the association will likely act differently to this type of ejection.

I, like BillyMac, have a thick skin when it comes to coaches comments. At the same time, "idiot!" Not likely to get away with that one. Yikes. "Worst referee I have ever seen." Well, that one I might have just chuckled at hearing (many -- sorry I used this word again, Jurassic, but I think it fits here -- folks have a habit of significantly overusing best/worst/cutest/ugliest and other "est" words). On the other hand, I don't have a problem with you sending him packing for the comment.

The state requires the form after every ejection....I have ref'd a long time (and may indeed be the WORST official this Coach has ever seen....can't actually dispute that!) So I am experienced in ejections and T's...just not this year....again, I support the State's philosophy and will try to enforce it....but within reason....thanks for the support and responses....

Do you get a lot of baseball coaches at your basketball games? :confused:

No problem, but you need that in writing and signed by the individual writing it.

I turned in a game report last year on a coach who we didn't T up. Oh, he deserved one or maybe even two but even he didn't rise to the point of conduct you describe here. We decided not to T him because we feared his team would retaliate physically (they were getting smoked) during a live ball and spark a fight. That wasn't a good decision on our part and I regret it, but the message we got back was if we weren't prepared to do our job, what can they do? When you think about it, its a good question.

Bottom line: your guy's a moron. But I would definitely make the effort to get a letter stating what he or she said.

Sometimes you just have to take the information under advisement and do what you feel is best in the end.

Peace

I would've let my partner administer the technicals and taken the spot at the division line if the coach I just whacked was at the same end as the FTs (which it would be in the first half). I just try to put as much distance between myself and the coach as possible in these situations.

You said, "he is standing behind me (lead, administering) whispers "Idiot."

Doesn't sound like he was addressing you. May not have even been talking about you. Since you were administering the FTs, my guess is you didn't make the foul call. If he yells "Idiot!" that's one thing. But a whisper? No. Now, I might turn and ask, "I'm sorry coach. Did you say something?"

I guess you were there but I can't say that I would have called that one. And I'm as quick triggered as anybody.

And I agree with Rich. You should have gone opposite and gotten away from him. We don't tell coaches they have to sit down. They already know. If we resume play and he's still standing, that's a little different. Now one of us is going to tell him to sit as we pass by. But to go to him and tell him he has to sit onoly gives him more opportunity to whine and complain.

JMO.

I do not totally disagree, but even if he was not talking to him or anyone directly, that does not give him the right to run his mouth. And if you do not want people to misconstrue your comments, then keep them to yourself. We are not the only people out there that the term, "You cannot quote silence" means for. And I am the kind of person that gets no pleasure out of giving Ts. Half the time I find other ways to handle situation which work very well for me.

You would be surprised how many coaches do not know this rule or know what it means. I think most coaches know, but if they continue to stand and they have not been informed, then they will claim they did not know what they were doing on the next T. I have no problem telling a coach to sit down, but it should come from the other official, not the calling official.

Peace

I guess as you often suggest, things are different in different areas. Very rarely do we have to tell a coach to sit down here.

Either way, I'm not going to immediately go to him after the T, tell him he has to sit and give him an opportunity to continue to whine. As I said, if we start play and he's still standing, then one of us will run by and seat him.

You are absolutely correct, things are different. And the kind of games coaches play I am sure are different as well.

But as I said, even if he went across the court, that does not give the coach the right to say what they want. If we have rules that want us to go into huddles and penalize coaches for language we are 50 feet from, then coaches need to watch what they say only 20 feet from the officials towards or around them.

Peace

Good points, RichMSN....

We had a disagreement over a correctable error (failure to award merited FT), and he was pulling situations out of his "gazoo." I stayed firm, and we started to shoot the 1l1,,,that's why he snuck up behind and whispered, "Idiot." Maybe I should have ignored it, since it was only a whisper, but if the mercury in my thermometer shoots through the roof, I T...and it did....

Me, too. :)

I can handle a good deal of chirping from coaches, and I'll let them ask questions all day if they want and I'll answer them if I can. On the other hand, when coaches scream or gesture after a call or no-call, I have less patience. I T'd a coach last week for this. He was losing by 20+ in the second half. He hadn't been too bad in the first half, but was chirpy a couple of times...nothing bad though. Second half he had a couple of outbursts where we would make a call and he would yell quite loudly. My partner warned him after one of these. I went to talk to him after a foul on his team he didn't like and he did the old "Number so and so did this, then so and so did this", trying to complain about plays from 10 minutes ago. I told him that I don't know if those were fouls or not, but his player fouled just now.

His team hits a jump shot and I'm the Trail right in front of his bench. Two opposing players get tied up under the basket, and I can't see anything and my partner lets it go. The coach jumps up and starts yelling something about calling ticky tack fouls as I'm heading down the court to be the new Lead. When I'm at about half court, he screams "Blow your whistle!!". I obliged and served T for one and the other team had a little free throw practice.

Is the person at the State Office an ex-COACH?

I pre-game this:

If I have to give a Coach a T...I want to administer the foul shots.

I like to be doing something...other than just standing opposite like a "bump on a log".
IMO...it's more uncomfortable to be just standing there, doing nothing, while the fans are possibly berating you for T'ing up there favorite "cheerleader". I mean, not that being stoned, verbally, by the fans is that big of deal...I just like doing something more constructive than standing there after the big "whack"...it's kinda anti-climatic.;)

Again, administering the foul shots gives me something to do...I don't have to concentrate on the coach anymore. (That's what my partner's can do)

Now...If I have to give a player a T...I want to talk to the coach. Or, I have no problem talking to the coach. If I have given a T to a player...there is nowayinhell a coach is going to give me grief...the kid deserves it and he knows it.

If the coach needs an explanation on that...no problem.

We discussed this the other day, and administering the free throws could put you in the coach's pocket next time down the court (in the 2nd half). We decided in pregame that it would be better to administer the throwin if the situation was heated.

I think he is a very experienced (and respected) umpire....I really do support him, if this is his philosophy....I just wish and hope he tells the coaches that they don't get "carte blanche" after one T....short of the F-Bomb...for the next several minutes...They need to know it's hands off....But he's in charge, and I will do all I can to muzzle myself...

Tell him to sign up for this forum and we'll straighten him out. :D

Personally, I would simply say, "I understand." Then, after the call is over, forget everything he said.

Better yet, post his email address on here and a few of us will send him our thoughts regarding his not supporting the officials for taking care of business. :eek:

What you and Snaqwell said....Thanks!!! But I guess I will take the low road and pass...I appreciate the support!!!

there's venting, and then there's getting personal. . .
 

Great points by all thus far. Here's my $.02.

I think (hope?) your state office is telling you that when a coach gets whacked, you should allow him the opportunity to vent a bit. He's now paid for his right to complain, so allow him to complain. Although we would all love to officiate in a world where the coach stops whining immediately upon getting whacked, that doesn't often happen. More often than not, he will get in a couple more shots that include words like "terrible", "horrible", etc. I'll usually let that go, as long as I perceive that he is winding down in the process.

That having been said, there is a very distinct difference between venting (permitted, within reason) and getting personal (never permitted). When the coach in your situation began with "you're the worst ref I've ever seen", he has leaped across the line. You stick him without hesitation.

If the guy at the state office is aware of the specifics, including the personal affront, and he still tells you that you should have passed, then he is wrong. Simple as that.

Disagree - he got whacked for what he already said and getting a T does not IMHO give him lisence to continue running at the mouth inappropriately. What you are saying is like calling a travel on A1 in the first quarter but since he's paid for traveling - don't call it on him again unless it's personal and he runs you over. :(

This premise is flawed.

He has now paid for his previous complaining. There is no BOGO provision in the rule book.

Does it have a GIGO provision? :confused: