Lopsided Foul Counts
 

After reading the post "Coach Lies to Evaluator" I think it might be helpful to mention some points for younger officials.

We have all had games where foul counts get lopsided and there are many reasons why:
Defense is more aggressive
Team in general is a step slower
Parity in ability, etc.

How do you deal with coaches and games like this in general.

I ignore coaches who whine about foul counts. They may as well be asking for three seconds during a throwin.

I continue to apply advantage/disadvantage.

It really depends on the coach. I might ignore them. I might be sarcastic ("I do not count them, I call them"). I might tell them to stop fouling. I might tell him the reason the foul count is different. I do all kinds of things based on the person and the situation and how well I know the coach.

Peace

Depending on the coach and my mood my response could be:

• "We'll look harder" or...
• silence or...
• "That's not our fault"

Act stunned and reply "there's such a thing as lopsided foul counts?!?" :p

No, seriously, it would depend on the situation and coach like others have said.

What if the score is lopsided? Do they want us to balance that out also?

Usually I respond with, "Get your players to stop fouling and that should help even things out."

Uhhh....coach, if you tell your players to play defense with the feet and not their hands, the foul count would probably be in your favor!!!!!!!

Typical response is, "Coach, we honestly do not look at the foul count. We call the game as we see it. If the foul count is not equal, it's probably because one team is being more aggressive on defense."

-Josh

"Coach, are you accusing me of cheating?" ;)

I tried this in a game the other day:

Coach: The foul count is 6 to 1. Can you watch the other team?

Ref: OK coach. Where do you think the are fouls happening?

Coach: (Slight Pause) Watch the hand checks on my guards.

Ref: OK coach, I will watch for hand checks.

The funny thing was, he had to stop and think about where
the fouls were. That let me know he was just whining about the count.

What do you do when you do not call a single hand check?

Peace

One team is playing zone, the other an aggressive man to man.
One tam is shooting jump shots, the other is driving to the basket and passing the ball to the low post.
One team is playing defense with their hands, the other is moving their feet.
One team is pressing in the BC, the other is running back to the other end.

For younger officials:

Don't try a snappy or smart response. Nothing good can come of it.
Don't try to explain the foul count, no matter how obvious.
Ask the coach if there's a question, or a specific play to discuss, or ignore if it's a statement.
"I am aware of the foul count" works well for me.

Calling the foul count to your attention seems to be part of the "working the officials 101" handbook when you don't have a specific play to question. Come to expect it.

I didn't call any (I didn't see any) and the question was an honest one. I really wanted to know if I was missing something. In any case, I don't think I will ask the question again. The posters here are correct- better to just listen.

Foul Count response
 

I have players ask about foul count ever so often and usually just ask, "Do you know why the foul count is 9 to 3?" After the obligatory "No.", I just say, "It's because the fouls are 9 to 3!" They get the point.

I understand why you asked the question. I am just saying that if you ask and you do not call what they think is a foul, now you have set yourself up for the coach to go off. Kind of like how people address things in the pre-game meeting only to not call anything to the coaches or players liking and that gives them one more than to complain about. Something like hand checking is not always what coach’s think is. They think anytime you touch a ball handler, that is a foul.

Peace

Uneven count
 

I had a game that was 14-0 in the third quarter. Coach was going ballistic. The truth was, it was a mismatch, both teams knew it, and one team was driving the lane and scoring and the other team just hung around the outside and missed three-pointers. Who's going to foul a team lobbing up shots if they can't hit the broad side of a barn?

Halfway through the third quarter, the coach yelled, "I've never seen anything like this before in my life!" I laughed and said, "Neither have I!"

I think pizanno makes a good point. Last Friday night, I used the exact line, "I don't count them, I just call them" after a coach had pointed out to us that the foul count was 7-0 in the opponents favor. Of course he had also pointed out to us when it was 4-0, 5-0, and 6-0. His team was lazy and playing defense entirely with their hands.

As I finished informing him that I just call them and turned to walk away, he yelled out to me that "you don't do that very well, either"!. Whack! As I was reporting the technical, the thought went through my mind to ask him if he liked #8 any better than the first 7, but I refrained. Although at that point I think the technical was necessary, I didn't feel very good about it, because I felt that at least to a certain degree I had baited him into it.

Pizanno might make a good point, but I have used that line several times and most of the time coaches shut up.

The problem with any line or any way you deal with coaches, not all people have the ability to deliver the line or the demeanor to back it up. And nothing works for everyone and all situations. I have never had to T up a coach for this line. I have on the other hand tried to use reasoning and try to appeal to the common sense of coaches only to have that blow up in my face. When a coach is yelling the foul count, they are not trying to be reasonable. They are trying to suggest you are cheating or incompetent. I feel those kinds of comments need to be addressed or they will just call you a cheat.

The question was asked "What would you do...." not what is the best thing for everyone. If I have learned anything by working over the years in all my sports, I have learned that everyone cannot just mirror what others do just because it works for an individual. Sarcasm works well for me because I like to send a certain message how ridiculous calling out foul counts are.

Peace

i usually respond, " coach im a referee not a mathematician!" ... its my job to officiate not keep counts of fouls =)

My favorite response to the question of foul count is "which ones do you feel your team did not deserve"

He wanted one, had one coming, and you just facilitated it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Personally, I'm more in the camp of "The fouls are 9-3 because the fouls are 9-3. Period." And unless the coach is asking a question, I'm just ignoring it until I have to either deliver a warning (he's too loud about it, out of the box, or otherwise being a douchebag) or a technical.

I called two in a varsity girls game last week (first USC technicals in 2 years) on the losing team with a 4-point margin and a minute left. Girl acted up after we didn't call a violation (I was the C, it was a backcourt violation they wanted, and the T was straddling the line) and got whacked. I reported the T and it was the girl's fifth foul. Since I was there reporting the foul and technical, I told the coach it was 5 fouls and started the clock.

He asked for a timeout. I told him I needed a sub first. He told me he wasn't giving me one and that he wanted a timeout. I repeated, "by rule, I need a sub before the timeout." He came back with, "you're not getting one and I want a timeout" and he turned his back to me. During this time the horns went off in the background. I whacked him.

Could I have avoided the technical by granting him the timeout? Sure. And I know many would've done that. But the easy way isn't always the right way.

This is the best advise. One other point is that size makes a difference. i am not very tall, so I believe that coaches will try to intimidate me because of that. Snappy LITTLE(notice the pun)comments can easily backfire. I like to use "what is your question coach" as much as I can. I also just say that" you are acting unsportsman like and this is your warning"

Along this line, I hate it when coaches want me to grant the timeout before I report a foul. When I have a request, I always let them know I acknowledge their request but need to report the foul first. Usually, they're pretty good but I had one that kept saying "I want a timeout!" As I was reporting the foul, that coach's players started going to him to huddle up while the other team waited. After the report, I turned and asked him which timeout he wanted, a 30 or full. He went off, saying he already asked for a full and he was already in the huddle and not to interrupt him. I whacked him, reported the T, and then the timeout. The other team then proceeded to their bench. Coach had his girls back on the court before the other team, and was asking why the horn was taking so long. He didn't know he'd been whacked till the other team came out of the huddle and my partner asked for a shooter for the free throws. Coach started on my partner asking what was going on, then he came flying down the sideline screaming at me. Lucky for me, partner T'd him for being out of the box and ejected him. There's some idiocy out there indeedy.

Size, race, gender, experience, grey hair can all be factors to how you are treated and how the people react to you. I know big Black guys that can say anything and no one response to them in a negative way. :D

Peace

I know big white guys, little black guys, little hispanic guys, and tall white women who get the same treatment. You're right, though, lots of things come into play here.

Correlation, Or Cause And Effect ???
 

As my hair has gotten grayer, my technical fouls have decreased. Coincidence?

Older, kinder, gentler BillyMac.

I only have one response to being asked why lopsided fouls:

"Well coach if you had taught your kids to run a offense so they stop shooting 3 pointers or turning the ball over you might get a call. You see the other team works the ball inside and takes good shoots. It might help too if they learned to play defense."

Then I just wait.

LOL

It is worthwhile to mention that this thread is merely a chapter of the great coach essay titled:


It is not that unusual for a team to be drastically behind in the foul count, but ahead in the score. Aggressive defense leads to turnovers, and all is good.......at first. You don't hear much from the coach trailing in the foul count at this point. But as the game goes on, if this trend continues, the free throws and the disqualifications add up, and the team that started in a hole comes from behind to win. What follows is inevitable.

"We had no chance. The refs fouled out 3 of our starters"

wow -- even i must say that any coach worth his weight in salt would get a T after this or if not an ejection. I am guessing this comment is a joke.

The world will never know because any coach worth his weight in salt would have taught his kids how to run an offense. ;)

Last night I worked a boys varsity game as part of the tourney. The home team was on its second game of the day and ran out of gas in the second half. They jacked up 3s from everywhere while the fresher visiting team kept running their offense. The fouls were something like 12-4 at the end of the second half. Coach said nothing, players said nothing. Of course as soon as the fouls hit 6-4, the home team was fouling to stop the clock, so that may have had something to do with it.