Elbowing

Refsmitty

Situation BJV last night

A1 getting post position to receive pass into the post - I am lead -
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

JugglingReferee

Refsmitty wrote
Situation BJV last night

A1 getting post position to receive pass into the post - I am lead -
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

The Fed wants these curtailed. The possibilities are either the elbow violation or a technical foul (possibly flagrant if an attempt to injure). If the swinging was deliberate, I would go with the T. If not, violation sounds like a good call.

jdmara

Refsmitty wrote
Situation BJV last night

A1 getting post position to receive pass into the post - I am lead -
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

Non-contact swinging of the elbows, violation...yep. Although I agree with JR that if the intent is to cause injury, a technical is the correct call.

-Josh

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Refsmitty wrote
Situation BJV last night

A1 getting post position to receive pass into the post - I am lead -
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

Refsmitty:

There two possible infractions of the rules in this play. And we are paid to the big $'s to decide which one occured.

Play 1: A1 is just swining his elbows excessively in an effort to get people away from him so he can get the the rebound.

Play 2: Did A1 swing his elbow in an attempt to hit B1 and missed? Attempting to hit an opponent is a flagrant TF.

From the description of your play, I would go with Play 1.

MTD, Sr.

Amesman

OK, perhaps a bit far-fetched but what if a defender (say they're in a zone) swings the non-contact elbow? With perhaps some low-level "get out of my area" display but no intent to harm (No T)? It's a slow day here ...

Adam

It's a violation for the defender as well.

Spence

A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Spence wrote
A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

Spence

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Maybe, maybe not.

MTD, Sr.

As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

DonInKansas

Spence wrote
A1 rebounds a shot by B1. B2 and B3 immediately pressure A1. A1 in trying to keep the ball away from the defenders swings his elbows back and forth. No contact.

Anything?

Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.

PSidbury

Refsmitty wrote
A1 swings a pretty visious elbow but misses the defender behind him - I call elbow violation - what would you have?

Called it in my last game when the kid rebounded and started flailing his elbows within inches of defender's faces.

To me, an easy "Excessive swinging of elbows".
It even has it's own signal in the NFHS Official Basketball Signals chart.

Now if the kid is swinging his elbows and no one is around him or defenders are retreating from him as he begins to do it... no call.

Paul

jevaque

What if B1 controls a rebound with elbows out like some are taught to do and and pivots moving elbows side-to-side but not excessively and makes contact with the defender with his/her elbow???

Amesman

Snaqwells wrote
It's a violation for the defender as well.

OK, blanking out and nobody's bailed me out yet: What's the penalty/action after this? Especially since it could be off ball/away from the play? Just blanking out.

Mregor

Amesman wrote
OK, blanking out and nobody's bailed me out yet: What's the penalty/action after this? Especially since it could be off ball/away from the play? Just blanking out.

It'a a violation. For all violations, except BI and GT, what is the penalty?

BillyMac

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Maybe, maybe not.

Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

DonInKansas

BillyMac wrote
Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.:p

BillyMac

DonInKansas wrote
It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.

Our former interpreter used to say, "The best bad call, is a strong bad call".

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Spence wrote
As a new official I've leaned towards the "maybe not" but I'm not sure what I would have to see to call the violation in this scenario.

Spence:

I am glad you didn't think I was being flip in my previous response. I should have added that it is a HTBT type of play. As someone who has taught new basketball officials (MTD, Jr., is a second year official) I would actually hope that a new official would be more prone to put air in his whistle than not put air in his whistle.

The biggest problem with new officials is to call anything, because it is all new too them and there is so much information to process.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

DonInKansas wrote
Contact doesn't matter. If you deem the swinging excessive, call the violation.

Don:

Contact does matter, because if there is contact it means that a personal foul has occured.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BillyMac wrote
Wow, such a definitve answer. Is that your final answer, and are you sticking to it?

Maybe, maybe not. 😀

MTD, Sr.