It's the message board equivalent of a weak whistle.:p

I Guess He's On The Fence, Or Off The Wagon ???
 

Our former interpreter used to say, "The best bad call, is a strong bad call".

Spence:

I am glad you didn't think I was being flip in my previous response. I should have added that it is a HTBT type of play. As someone who has taught new basketball officials (MTD, Jr., is a second year official) I would actually hope that a new official would be more prone to put air in his whistle than not put air in his whistle.

The biggest problem with new officials is to call anything, because it is all new too them and there is so much information to process.

MTD, Sr.

Don:

Contact does matter, because if there is contact it means that a personal foul has occured.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe, maybe not. :D

MTD, Sr.

If A1 had a legal position on the court then B1 has commited a personal foul: common foul which in this case a player control foul.

MTD, Sr.

The hesitancy on the whistle is due to the apparent vague-ness of the rule. How do you define it? Like the old joke about not knowing how to define porn but knowing it when you see it?

Do I take into account how close the defender is? How many times the elbow swings?

You absolutely have to call a violation on that PIG :p

How about these, made on a JV game last night:

1. ball bouncing toward the sideline, and a girl gets bumped out of bounds (you know where this is going). She jumps back in with BOTH feet and grabs the ball. TWEET! "She was out of bounds!" Going the other way.

2. Girl is fouled at the end of the half, and the lane is cleared for her FT attempts. One of the opponents wanders out on the court behind her, drinking from her water bottle, on her way to the locker room a little early. TWEET! "Lane violation! She gets another shot!" Oh yeah, I should mention that the shooter had not released the attempt yet.

These calls made by a 2nd year guy, who has a reputation for being unteachable. He did say that he learned something when we told him that call #1 was incorrect.

If it's not excessive (defined in the book as "pivoting from the shoulders"), then it's treated just as any other movement. If the contact caused a disadvantage, call a personal foul.

If it is excessive, then you can have a violation (no contact) or a personal foul (some contact) or an intentional foul (excess contact) or a flagrant foul, ...

Heck -- you might even be able to call it a fight.

Only if the defender is within his vertical space. Had a jv game last week where the defender was crouching over top of the opponent who had just secured a rebound. Offensive player pivoted and caught the defender in the face with his elbow. I had nothing, and coach wasn't happy.

four situations
 

This is what I have been told what to do -

1) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and no contact --> elbow violation

2) If a player swings their elbows to create room or space and there is contact --> player control foul

3) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and misses --> technical foul. Then it is the descretion and intent to determine if you consider it flagrant or intentional. Flagrant, the player is disqualified. Intentional, the player stays.

4) If a player swings an elbow (not elbows) and makes contact --> flagrant foul. Flagrant, the player is disqualified.

Snaqs:

You should know me better, :D. A legal position presumes that the defender is in his own vertical space (cylinder of verticality) and not violating the offensive player's cylinder of verticality.

MTD, Sr.

iref4him:

The information that you have been given is a very good summation of how to apply this rule, with one small exception. Item (3) is not different from Item (4) except that in (4) contact was made, therefore the TF foul in (3) must be flagrant. It can not be just an intentional TF (by definition there is not such animal anymore in NFHS) even thought the flagrant TF could be intentional. And remember that the flagrant foul in (4) is a personal foul if it occurs while the ball is live.

MTD. Sr.

4-19-3: ART. 3 . . . An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul