7 year of commitment and now I'm a cheater?
 

Boys 5th/6th grade game Saturday in the league I have been associated with for 7 years...Served two years on their Board recently!

Coach already had one T from me for arguing a push on rebounding action in the 2nd Q. Obvious foul on his "A" player who crashed into two defensive players backs trying to get a rebound.

In 4th Q, after a held ball was given to the other team...I'm headed back down court in and as I pass him at the end of his bench closest to the table I hear "Don't cheat my kids!"

I let play continue at the other end as they were advancing the ball and luckily had a quick score to which I blew the play dead and approached the bench. I asked the coach if he would mind repeating his "cheating my kids" comment and asked if he was questioning my integrity?

To this I was met with him standing up face to face with me saying "I know you are mad at me but don't cheat my kids...you gave them the ball twice in a row!"

I calmly said to him "Coach, if I mistakenly awarded them the held ball twice, that is one thing that can be discussed but if you are accusing me of cheating we have a much larger issue at hand and you are done coaching today...."

He responded with some more talk about me cheating the kids and I asked him one more time was he accusing me of cheating to which he uttered the phrase cheating my kids again. So I tossed him in mid sentence...

Now, I keep a rubber band on my wrists in this league to keep me honest on the AP direction ...league doesn't have poss. arrow at table and score clock box doesn't have that either...) I very well may have forgot to change it...the other team might have had the last held ball in the 3rd Q and got the first in the 4th Q? I don't really recall....I'm pretty good about keeping up with it...

So the coach is gone for the next game (per the leagues following of the IHSAA rules) and he has to petition the board to coach again. Wasn't the first time I've had issue with this knucklehead

I guess I'm most pissed off at the fact I've given a lot of time to this league (unknown to him) the past 7 years...both on the court an off. For this dude to say something like that is outlandish. I guess the $25/game they pay us was just not enough :rolleyes:

Ok...just wanted to share with some people who get it and ask you....How would you have handled. A volunteer parent working the score table told the Board Member on duty I let more than enough go....and perhaps I should not have even questioned it if I thought he said it....I think that's why I asked for him to repeat it cause I wanted to be damn sure. What would you have done? For the record, if that was his first T of the day, I would have ruled it flagrant and tossed him.

You gave him too many chances to retract, IMO. I'm not sure I would have confronted him, but once he got face to face with you and accused you of cheating, he's done.

I guess I'm lucky. While I deal with a lot of Rec Coaches and parents who don't know rules and can't coach for beans......seems I'm avoiding many of the knuckleheads.

Sounds like you gave him an awful long leash to hang himself.... But, in your situation, I'd want to be doubly sure what I've got too and not be seen as an OOO.

Hopefully, with seven yrs in the league and the fact that you seldom T and eject coaches, you've got credibility. He got what he deserved.

I would have gone straight to him and said, "Coach, I don't expect you to agree with every call I make; but if you accuse me of cheating again we're going to have a problem that I have to resolve."

It warns him without asking him to repeat what he said. I personally don't like the, "Coach, do you want to repeat that," line as it smells like a trap. Just draw the line in neon lights for him (since he apparently see it) and let him decide.

As I've posted before, I've been on the Board of our local kids rec league for 17 years. Many of the coaches know me since a lot of them coach their kids right on up from 3rd grade through HS. If any coach in this group or any other kids rec league I work said I was "cheating their kids" and I heard him or her clearly, they would be gone at that point. And I wouldn't get any grief about it from any kids league I work.

Frankly, I think you gave him way too much rope. There's a difference between complaining about calls and questioning an official's integrity.

Question my integrity?
 

Question it on the court...you're getting a T. Question it on the diamond..you're getting tossed. That's it...end of story. Justified not justified? I've never particuarly cared...you question my integrity you get no slack.
"Don't cheat my kids" is in a whole other area from the usual..."call it both ways"..."we're not getting the same call"...etc. Yeah the pronoun you is not in there...but "don't cheat my kids" is as personal as you can get about questioning any offical's integrity.

At a 5th and 6th grade game, he would have been done being in my face. That is totally unacceptable and not something I would put up with a very experienced varsity or college coach. I am certainly not putting up with being called a cheater at a level than in a week everyone will not be thinking about.

Peace

No need for the pronoun you. It is a command. The subject is you.

ron

I really like Shaqs view on this one. I agree with his point about the "repeat the line" stuff. The statement clearly lets the coach know that you can give him some room to disagree with judgment, but he cannot question integrity. Finally, the next step has clearly been stated.

This would have resulted in far less "leash", but, I sense it may have stopped the coach from continuing.

Missing an AP can be very frustrating for a coach, but WE are right more often than THEY are. I would simply state (as you did, I believe), that I may have missed one (sometimes the start of the quarter possession can be missed by a coach or an official), "But coach, I did not miss a possession on purpose."

I also agree with JRuts comment that you allowed a coach to go on the offensive in a pretty low level game.

By the way, I don't think that your time associated with the league should have anything to do with your integrity. Even if you were walking in the gym for the first time, the coach may be able to question your judgment at times, but the coach better NEVER question your integrity.

Always had problems diagraming those sentences in English class:confused:

I agree with the rest
 

This coach was WAAAY out of line.

I also agree usually when a coach starts a declarative statement with "You." He should be "checked" w/ at least a warning: "I have heard enough," or more aggressively with a "Whack"

I used to be the most patient/tolerant of all officials I knew (over 200 officials); however, the more I see knucklehead coaches like this, I have learned that an unemotionally assessed "T" goes to great lengths to refocus everyone back on the game. I also remind my partner that the next one, if necessary, should be awarded by him/her.

alright, i'm new to reffing, i've done some middle school stuff just trying to get my foot in the door as i'd like to work my to reffing HS and eventually (hopefully) high level college ball or even higher. that out of the way, i am new and will admit i probably don't know my *** from my elbows when it comes to the intricacies of officiating.

that said, my comment is referring to the beginning of the situation. i, as others above have said, do not like the "could you repeat that" because i think its baiting. how is an upset coach in the heat of competition going to respond a question like that?
that said, i have a couple of questions about this situation for all of you who are more experienced officials than i am (which would be, probably most of the posters on this board):
1. did Coltdoggs call a dead ball after the hoop specifically to address the coach and his comments? why would one do that? (i don't mean any malice, it hadn't crossed my mind to stop play unless a coach as an actual question/concern about something, if he's *****ing/baiting me i tune him out because i feel no good can come from me responding to his insults, it only encourages him to talk trash as a means of getting my attention, in my experience. if i'm wrong, by all means correct me). i can understand the coach questioning your integrity is a no-no, but is he really saying that you're a cheater is he mad and trying to let you know he's pissed? [you said that you've had problems with this guy before, so your judgement of his intent would be better than mine]
do the other refs here agree with the course of actions taken? (not the T-ing and tossing but the events leading up to it)
in reference to the "could you repeat that", what would others feel is the best way/phrase to approach a coach to handle him saying something like that without your (the ref) statement being condescending/baiting? something like "sir, did you just question my integrity?"
i like that because you give the coach to either stand up and say "yes, i think you're cheating" and "call you" on his opinion [to which you'd most likely toss him because for him to answer yes to your question he'd have to flat out accuse you of cheating] or he can clarify on why he said what he did and reason out an understanding.

And I Don't Care If It's Not A NFHS Approved Signal ...
 

I've got pretty thick skin, thicker than most, maybe because I coached middle school basketball for over twenty-five years. I've only given three, or four, technical fouls to coaches in the past five, or six years, total. But if anybody, head coach, assistant coach, trainer, player, substitute, bench personal, or the priest on the end of the bench, used the word "cheat" in reference to me, it would take me less than a second to toss him with the old, "You're outta here", baseball signal.

Stopping play to draw attention to the coach & going over to the bench area to challenge the coach. Frankly, you got what you asked for. You went to him and basically confronted him/backed him into a corner.

I say that since you stopped play, you had already made up your mind to T him. But you went into his wheel house to have him either back off or say it again. What did you expect him to do? Back off and apologize?

He was definitely wrong for his "cheating his kids" comment. He flat out said cheating and directed it toward an official. WHACK! But now you have gone to him. This is just adding fuel to his fire. He continued his comments, in fact according to the OP, said as much 3 different times.

It seems to me that this is one of those situations where both parties lose, because half the people are going to say you confronted/baited him, and the other half are going to say it was on him.

Just about any phrase with the word cheat in it is referring to the officials integrity and should not be tolerated. No need to go looking for something more.

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Welcome to the forum and best wishes on your new addiction... uh, er... I mean avocation.


This forum will help expedite your learning curve. In my view, dealing with difficult coaches is one of the more challenging aspects of game management/officiating. I believe it is something that evolves (and hopefully improves) as you gain experience. Participating in this forum and serious rules study are significant means to build your confidence and court presence. Additionally, finding a few local mentors who are willing to work with you is another helpful approach.


Moving on to your questions based on the OP.


If possible, I avoid creating an "artificial interruption" (calling a dead ball after the hoop) specifically to call out a coach. However, sometimes the need to address/redirect a coach requires it to be dealt with in immediate fashion. Like you mentioned, I would not challenge the irate coach with a statement, such as "could you repeat that" because I too view it as baiting.


Do the other refs agree with the course of actions taken? (not the T-ing and tossing but the events leading up to it)


In the early part of my officiating career, I tended to allow coaches "the benefit of the doubt" when I felt they were frustrated. However, my experience has taught me that coaches need to be redirected early if they are repeatedly challenging calls/no-calls. There are many factors that influence how sternly I respond to a coach's remarks. The more blatant or boisterous the more severe my response. It can range from "I heard you coach" to a more stern "I have heard enough." If these interventions fail then I will assess a "T." I also admit that I have less tolerance at lower levels. A while back, a sage AD once prudently advised me that I should view the court as a classroom and coaches as teachers. He added that I should place a high premium on respectful conduct from all --- coaches, players, fans, and officials.


Ultimately, you will individually define what your thresholds for coach conduct will be and learn efficient methods/strategies to manage them.

Good.

Insert technical foul here.

Or here.

Glad to see that you finally tossed him. In my opinion, you never needed to ask him to repeat what he said -- you were sure of it the first time that you heard it. Just use the Whack! Get Out!!!&reg; method ... works every time!

Thanks for the feedback gang...

Just to clarify...Yes, I was pretty sure of what I heard him say the first time and yes, I stopped play to be 100% sure. My mind was already made up he was done for the day after that comment....I wasn't trying to bait him or give him an opportunity to retract the statement....I just wanted to be certain of what he said so that I could give my "report" back to the league.

This particular guy does have a history of getting loud about calls and his focus has become the officials rather than the kids from time to time...those times have been dealt with accordingly (see T#1)

What I have learned from the reading of responses is that I could have chosen a better question or simply T'd/Tossed him without any conversation.

I know the league policy and code of conduct forward and backward and how they handle things...I've been with the league 7 years and assisted the Board for my the first 4 years in an unofficial capacity as a rules interpreter and advisor...spent the past two on their Board as an official voting member. I've since moved on from Board status because I don't live in that school township any longer.

I didn't want there to be a case of he said, I said and there was at least 3 others who were present at the table and acknowledged his "cheat my kids" comment.

This guy will sit out their first game Saturday and has to petition the Board for reinstatement. I told them I'd allow him to coach again with the understanding that any further incidents regarding officials will result in his removal from the league. 12 Teams in this 5th/6th grade league and 11 of the coaches never say a word to the officials.

I like this approach, and in fact use it quite often. I will typically tell the coach I don't expect him to agree with every decision we make, then go on to tell him what I do expect - an end to the running commentary, the constant "request" for a walk to stop, or whatever the case may be. This tact has been succesful for me more than it hasn't.

In this case however, I think it was too late for that. If I was 99.9% sure the comment came from the coach, at the first opportunity that didn't disadvantage the opponent, I would have stopped play and shown him the door.

I agree with some that you escalated the situation by confronting the coach. I'd say either assess the T and move on, or ignore the comment and move on. Personally, as soon as he says, "don't cheat my kids." he gets a T.

Don't be. You should never, ever give anyone enough power over you to control your emotions based on their actions.

Sound advice for all walks of life TA....thank you.

Strike one
Strike Two

Strike Three

Strike Four

Strike Five

Way to much rope!
should have been done at two three at the most.