'T' not warranted???
 

I'll make this short. I was not a witness to this but a good friend was part of the 3 man crew and he shared with me.

Freshman game, 1st game of a triple header, and the 'Home' boys go to the lockerroom for a last minute chat before the opening tip. After the boys left a few 'Home' JV boys go out onto the floor and do a little shooting. One guy decides to dunk the ball. Here is where it gets interesting. One official puts air to his whistle and reports a 'T' will be issued to the home team. Now when the freshman come back out the coach is informed that he has received a 'T' and that he has lost his box. The game begins with 2 freethrows and the ball is awarded to the Visitors. Home team gets the arrow. Coach is irate all game and then asks the referee who issued the 'T' if the number in the book is correct because he is going to report him to the MHSAA. Has this ever occurred before? I was looking thru the books and came up empty. I have a game with this official next week. I want to make sure we are on the same page.

No rulebook in front of me but I think the T was a mistake. Its limited to players in the game. The JV boy was not in the scorebook (I assume) so he does not fall under the "no dunking" rule.

There's mixed feelings on this, IMS. Players should know better, and if they're on the court during intermission or pregame, you can make an argument that they can be T'd. I just tell them to knock it off.

Honestly, I think calls like this will seriously curttail your career development as an official.

Maybe where you are, and maybe where I am. I just don't think you can make this blanket statement about every area.

We had GM come ask us during a game last week if it was a T if the varsity guys were dunking during half-time of the JV game. We told her to tell them to cut it out before we got out there. I walked up to one of the varsity guys when we got out there and told him to tell his teammates not to dunk or they'd risk a T for the JV team.

This is a Player Technical Foul...
 

... er, uh, which player again??

Could an official call a technical for a situation like this? Umm...Yeah, I'm sure you could find a way. Should an official call a technical for a situation like this? Probably not. Get game management to clear the non-participants off the floor.

-Josh

The officials have jurisdiction, now that they are on the floor. Do not allow anyone to warm-up but the teams who are about to start the game.

Maybe JV players were also members of the pep squad, and they were doing a pre-game/half-time exhibition that included dunking a la the Phoenix Suns Gorilla?

I had this situation a couple weeks ago. I just told them: "hey, stay off the rim." They said, "yes, sir."

I have seen this type of thing more this season than in the past. Generally, I have seen it during halftime of the JV game while both teams and the officials are in the locker room for half time. I know that a Southern Ohio official indicated that this is a common practice.

The rules indicate that a technical foul is to be called if a PLAYER dunks the ball. As Referee99 indicated, since the varsity player is NOT a PLAYER in the Freshmen or JV game, a technical foul cannot properly be called by rule.

As was pointed out in a similar thread on a different forum, what happens if a former player comes out of the stands and dunks the ball? Is that a technical foul?

I would suggest ensuring that game management keeps the players off the floor IF you don't want a non-player dunking the ball while you are on the floor or not on the floor. I suggest you call a technical foul when a PLAYER (a person with a name and number listed in the scorebook) dunks the ball other than during the game.

This situation is not specifically mentioned in the rules book or case book.

I dont understand why anyone cares about this? I usually dont go looking for more crap to add more stink to anything I am involved with.

The most sensible thing
 

Be proactive....
Have GM kick them off before it escalates.

Order them off the court yourself (Give them the "Hairy Eyeball," if they delay their departure.) :)

I find it very difficult to justify a "T" in this situation.

"Hey Guys, Please Get Off The Court Or I'm Getting The Site Director" ...
 

And if his partner dunked during this time, he could penalize his partner with a technical foul, hell, make it a flagrant technical foul, and sit him down too. Then he'd be left alone to work the game, and make as many crazy calls as he wanted to.

if he assessed his partner with a Technical, does that mean that he gets to shoot the free throws? or since it's usually refs v. crowd, does an upstanding citizen from the peanut gallery get to shoot the throws? that'd make for an entertaining score on the evening news:

home 42 visitor 33

crowd 2 refs 0 (unless you're counting correct calls as points and bad calls as negative points, in which case its probably refs 53 crowd -200)

So, what do you do when, during pregame warmups for the JV game, one of the players dunks? Then, you find, that he's not in the book because he's a varsity player just screwing around.

It's been discussed here ad nauseum -- with passionate arguments on both sides.

Personally, if it's clear that he's not a JV player, then just get him off the court. If you think the coach is trying to pull a fast one, issue the T.

How I hate non-player situations like this. Had a boys reserve game one night where I observed a player warming up with earrings. During captains' meeting, I emphasized no jewelry (he wasn't a captain), yet when the teams went to huddle before the tip-off, he still had the earrings in. I went over to him, and told him to get rid of the earrings. He said, I'm not playing, and when I looked at his outfit compared to the others, I realized he wasn't kidding me. What made me think he was a player, he had the same warmup shirt on. Jeez.

What fast one will the coach be trying to pull?

If one of his players dunks prior to when the book is filled out, for example, and the coach wants to avoid the T, he can leave said player out of the lineup.

He can then have him added to the book later, but this time it's a team T only; nothing to the player or coach. Coach can also time this so that it only costs him two free throws.

snaq, in all due respects, thats quite the ledge you are dangling off.

This point is debatable.

Tell me, then, what do you do if A55 dunks with 14 minutes on the clock. You go to report it, and the book isn't done yet. Coach says he's one of the varsity guys. What's your call?

You just asked "what fast one" the coach could be pulling. I told you; it's not my ledge.

[QUOTE=Snaqwells;575316]Tell me, then, what do you do if A55 dunks with 14 minutes on the clock. You go to report it, and the book isn't done yet. Coach says he's one of the varsity guys. What's your call?QUOTE]



I guess I'd T and tell the coach that an A55 just dunked when they knew they couldn't:D

Being in the book has nothing to do with anything. The Rule 10 technical reads "player." Since a "player" is one of only 5 at a given time, the rule's intent is actually "team member," which includes everyone in uniform who is eligible to be a player. The rule in Rule 10 probably should read "Player or team member" to cover times when more than 5 can be on the court -- such as pregame and warm ups. The book isn't required to be complete prior to 10 minutes before the game (and, individuals can be added later as well at the expense of a penalty), yet the officials' jurisdiction begins 15 minutes prior. You're still going to call a T for an apparent team member who dunks at 14 minutes prior even though he isn't yet in the book.

Don't make this hard: if he is a team member, T. If not, tell game management to tell them to stay off the rim. Its not your job to involve yourself with non team members.

Who do you apply this to if the coach never puts him in the book?

wait till hes in the book then tell the coach that he got a tech for dunking during warmups. I dont think the warmup is only for 10 minutes before the game. Once the officials are on the court, for their game both teams warming up at their baskets are team members for that game whether or not the book is completed. If its clear a team member dunked he's getting a T. But then again this problem isnt so rampant that we really think its going to happen all the time. A huge majority know the rule, and unless its a really thunderous dunk most times a quick chat and warning gets the message across.

Thanks for the input. My thoughts concur with yours. Just tell them not to do it again and better yet, hit the road..
Thanks

You're supposed to report it right away, in part to prevent it from happening more.

If it's borderline, I'll remind the player that he doesn't want to take the risk. But there's a lot of ground between no longer borderline and thunderous.

And when they do the line-ups and the person is not in the book, do you keep the T or erase it?

Normally, the book is done ahead of time. If this kid isn't a player, coach will tell me when I let him know (right after I tell the kid). If he saves that little nugget for when I check the book, too late, and I'll still charge him with the indirect; might just direct the scorer to add said player. Not sure about that, though.

It does. ;)

Rule 10, Section 3
A player shall not:
. . .
ART. 3 . . . Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction,
dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game
or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item
applies to all team members.
EXCEPTION: A player may grasp the basket to prevent injury.
PENALTY: (Art. 3) For dunking or grasping during pregame or intermission, the
foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach.

There is a simple way to put a stop to that.

Charge both the team T when the name is entered later AND a direct technical foul to the Head Coach for unsporting behavior.

I asked the state coordinator of officials in Nebraska (NSAA) regarding the situation in the OP and this was his response:

Probably should have skipped the technical foul. The player that dunked the ball was not part of the game being contested. He and his teammates shouldn't have been on the floor.

According to the NSAA basketball manual, teams are not permitted to shoot/warm-up at the intermission of the preceding game. In this case the athletic administrator should have been informed and the violation should have been reported to the NSAA.

Moral of story: Check with your state on how to handle this, they may already have a policy in place.

Are you advocating two different penalties for one action?

It's more of a delayed penalty for the earlier pregame dunk.

I understand the reasoning, I'm not sure about penalizing an act that already carries it's own penalty with something on top of it. So, is he saying there would be 4 FT's for this administrative T?

3 man crew for freshman games?

I think he's advocating two T's for two separate acts. One is obviously the administrative T for adding the player to the book. The second is direct to the head coach for his deceitful actions in trying to game the system and avoid the T for the dunk.

Did you work all the games involving the home team I had last week? You know, the ones where the official didn't care what color prewrap the girls were wearing?

Of course the coach will then get a direct technical foul for trying to avoid the first technical. :D

Is that the answer you give if the supervisor asks why there was dunking going on in warm-ups? You have to address it in some manner, you can't just ignore it.

fullor30
 

When a triple header is scheduled, 1- three man crew will work both the freshmen and the JV contests..Then another 3-man crew is there for the V game..

fullor30
 

When a triple header is scheduled, 1- three man crew will work both the freshmen and the JV contests..Then another 3-man crew is there for the V game..

Yes, in my game by players in my game. If its no one invovled with my game, why in the heck am I going to penalize either team. A visitor might as well wear the home school shirt and come out and dunk and earn a T for the OTHER team. This T is completly absurd, and I guarantee this will hamper your advancement. Unless your superiors have explicitly told you to call this, and I dont see how they could or would, but if they did that is the only time to make such a call.

I didn't say penalize. I just said it needs to be addressed. I personally don't see all the convoluted scenarios happening that have been put forth in this thread.

If they are not players then send them off, if they are players then 'T' them up.

Can Fashion Police Be Successful, And Get Promoted To Fashion FBI Special Agent ???
 

Today I worked a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" (fifth, and sixth, graders) quadruple-header, and we didn't have a single "Fashion Police" issue. Not one. Every single player on all eight teams was 100% legally equipped, undershirts, headbands, and sweatbands. It's been like that all season. These are ten, and eleven, year olds, coached by volunteer coaches, mostly parent/coaches.

Last night I watched a public high school girls varsity game. Two top notch girls varsity programs, with two of our better, more experienced officials. One of the players was wearing a red jersey, with a black, short sleeve, undershirt, underneath the red, sleeveless, jersey, and she played the entire game like that. This is February, for Pete's sake.

The difference: The assigner of the Catholic middle school league told us at the beginning of the season, that if he ever walked into a gym, while we were officiating for him, and if there was an illegal undershirt, sweatband, or headband, that we would not get paid ($30.00) for that game.

Headbands and wristbands must be white, black, beige, or a single solid color similar to the torso of the jersey. When wearing headbands and/or wristbands, all players must wear the same color. Pretty easy to understand. If ten year olds can understand them, then everyone should be able to understand them. These "Fashion Police" rules are enforceable, you just have to want to enforce them.