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-   -   substitutes Continually Pulled Back From Table (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/51311-substitutes-continually-pulled-back-table.html)

David M Fri Jan 30, 2009 01:57pm

substitutes Continually Pulled Back From Table
 
Boys V game last night. Coach would have substitutes ready at the table but at the next clock stopped dead ball he would pull them back to the bench. This went on until my partner warned him the next time would be a T. He did not do it after the warning. I don't think by rule we could have issued a T for this. Thoughts/comments?

deecee Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:00pm

I would just issue a delay of game warning here.

Adam Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 574013)
I would just issue a delay of game warning here.

For what? You can't just make stuff up on this.
There's nothing you can do.

chartrusepengui Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:12pm

depends - if the horn is continually sounding at the D ball - and then he pulls them back - and this keeps reoccurring - then you might construe it as making a travesty of the game in which case you could T. Notice I didn't say "should" before attacking this. If the table is not sounding the horn and players are pulled back quietly and game continues at normal pace - I got nothin.

Adam Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:27pm

If it was a continuous nuisance, it fits the unsportsmanlike behavior model, IMO; but it would have to be frequent before I'd do anything. If you do anything, do as the OP's partner did; warn first. Just don't think it's a D.O.G. warning because it's not.

Scratch85 Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 574018)
If it was a continuous nuisance, it fits the unsportsmanlike behavior model, IMO; but it would have to be frequent before I'd do anything. If you do anything, do as the OP's partner did; warn first. Just don't think it's a D.O.G. warning because it's not.

It would take more than just frequent to get me to address this sitch. If a coach wants to over-coach, that is his business. As Snaq indicated concerning the DOG, there is no rules basis to address this other than unsportsmanlike behavior. A coach would have to do more than change his mind frequently for me to consider it unsportsmanlike.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 574010)
Boys V game last night. Coach would have substitutes ready at the table but at the next clock stopped dead ball he would pull them back to the bench. This went on until my partner warned him the next time would be a T. He did not do it after the warning. I don't think by rule we could have issued a T for this. Thoughts/comments?

I would let it happen only about 3 times in a row, then give a warning for making a travesty of the game. The warning makes it clear that although we don't know what is in his mind, and therefore can't prove intent, we are clarifying what our interpretation is of the actions that he's committing.

There's no rules basis for one of those regular delays of game here.

Adam Fri Jan 30, 2009 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch85 (Post 574030)
It would take more than just frequent to get me to address this sitch. If a coach wants to over-coach, that is his business. As Snaq indicated concerning the DOG, there is no rules basis to address this other than unsportsmanlike behavior. A coach would have to do more than change his mind frequently for me to consider it unsportsmanlike.

When I say frequent, I mean virtually every dead ball. My guess is he's trying to get his defense set up this way.

Raymond Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 574034)
I would let it happen only about 3 times in a row, then give a warning for making a travesty of the game. The warning makes it clear that although we don't know what is in his mind, and therefore can't prove intent, we are clarifying what our interpretation is of the actions that he's committing.

There's no rules basis for one of those regular delays of game here.

I would just be an a$$ and when the coach really wanted a sub to come in I would put the ball in play really fast.

deecee Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 574035)
When I say frequent, I mean virtually every dead ball. My guess is he's trying to get his defense set up this way.

I agree with this -- this has never been an issue and I cannot imagine it happening more than a handful of times in a game ever. But why cant you call a delay of game because he is preventing you from putting the ball in play in a timely manner.

Raymond Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 574050)
I agree with this -- this has never been an issue and I cannot imagine it happening more than a handful of times in a game ever. But why cant you call a delay of game because he is preventing you from putting the ball in play in a timely manner.

Because DOG warnings are expressly laid out in the rule book and require a T upon the 2nd infraction.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 574050)
I agree with this -- this has never been an issue and I cannot imagine it happening more than a handful of times in a game ever. But why cant you call a delay of game because he is preventing you from putting the ball in play in a timely manner.

I believe it is because the DOG rule specifically lists the actions that must be done to issue the DOG. The OP situation isn't one of them.

deecee Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:26pm

That is true. I guess I will not go with the delay. I will just put the ball in play quickly when he might have an actual sub and hopefully he will get the message.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 574057)
That is true. I guess I will not go with the delay. I will just put the ball in play quickly when he might have an actual sub and hopefully he will get the message.

Do you not think a quick and friendly conversation is more worthwhile?

Adam Fri Jan 30, 2009 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 574050)
I agree with this -- this has never been an issue and I cannot imagine it happening more than a handful of times in a game ever. But why cant you call a delay of game because he is preventing you from putting the ball in play in a timely manner.

If that's your call, you go straight to the T. You can't issue a D.O.G. warning, though, because there are only 4 situations that call for that by rule. And if you issue a coach a D.O.G. warning for this, then turn around and call his team for a T the first time they reach across the plane late in the game; he's gonna rightly wonder why. Good luck explaining that one.


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