Lead call over the back foul(pushing)
 

I am told by a senior Ref that a Lead Official should never call a pushing foul(over the back) in the paint area. It is the responsibility of the C or the T. Your thoughts?

If that's the case, then what is the lead even watching the paint for?

Bovine scat.
Lead generally has waist-up and a very good look at any displacment in the lane.

I don't agree that the Lead should never call the rebounding (on the back) fouls but the Center and Trail should have better angles to make these calls. A Lead making this call isn't a problem but if things are being done correctly by all 3 officials the C and T should have the better angles to make this kind of call.

Just my opinion based on what I have seen and been taught over the years.

The higher the contact, the tougher it is for the Lead to see, simply because he/she is close to it. The C and T have a wider view and should have a decent angle. I won't say the Lead should "never" have it, but I think, in general, the outside guys have a better shot at getting it right.

On the other hand, the Lead has the best look at a push in the small of the back before the players jump. That's the one that is easiest for the Lead and hardest for the C and T.

But once the players jump and get up off the floor, those bumps from behind are harder for the Lead to see, IMO.

I agree, particularly if the Lead remains stationary near the lane.
Backing away [going wider], 4-6 steps, may improve a poor angle.

If you're in a gym that allows a wide angle, by all means, use it! I worked in a gym the other night where there's like 10 feet beyond the end line to the wall, so I went about 5 feet off the end line to get a better angle. You can see quite a bit from that angle, which sometimes seems better than any angle that I could have as a trail in 2-man.

If a foul takes place in your area, call it. The C and T do not have the best angle all the time on these fouls and often do not see what proceeded come other contact. I used to agree with that opinion years ago, but now I have worked long enough to know that is a silly statement.

Peace

I think the thing that should be remembered is that the L in some instances is really straight-lined. And what looks like a pushing foul from behind is not a foul at all. My position is: If the L can get the angle, especially in a two-man crew, and can see the push, then by all means call the foul. But, far too many times, I will be in the C or T and have a great look at the play and the L is calling a pushing foul when I darn well know he is calling the foul because he thinks there is a foul when he really can't see what is happening because he is straight-lined on the play.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

That sounds more like people calling what looks like something, rather than what is actually there. If that is the case then it does not matter where you are positioned you are not going to get the call right in the first place. I only try to call fouls that I clearly see, not what I think happens. And I think you have to allow for some contact on rebounds or you will have a foul every single time there is a shot. I am looking for displacement and a clear advantage, not simple contact to call a foul, especially on rebounding action.

Peace

"Never say never and never say always."

A game where the T and C are being active and getting the rebounding fouls makes for a much better game (it means they are staying actively involved and not bailing out), but there are going to be occasional situations where the L has to help out on a rebounding foul.

I'm with MTD on this one.

L needs to be able to see between the players to see if there is really contact. Many times L is guessing if there is contact or not. In two person mechanics, L has no option other than guess.

IMO, the hardest transition from 2 whistle to 3 whistle is the L position. L needs to be very patient with whistle and quit thinking there is a foul and knowing that there is a foul. Trusting T and C to be in position to make the fouls. T and C need to be able to see through the lane and take the match ups that they have a clean view of. Displacement is the key in calling these fouls. If you can't see between the players then you have business calling the foul.

Players are so much more athletic, quicker and jump out of the gym. THe higher the level you work the better you need to be at this.

I'm a second year guy, so help me out here.

In two man, I'm told to watch my primary area and in the T, that does not include the paint. So is an official considered ball watching in they are calling over the back in the paint, when the play is at the basket?

So if all 10 players go to the paint, you are not calling anything that you obviously see?

Peace

The primary are during a rebound is slightly different from the primary area during and offensive play.

Look at the players on your side of the basket and up the middle of the lane.

I like when C can get the pushes on rebounds. I go over that in my pregame with whoever I am working with. And with my playoff crew we seldom have a push on a rebound called by the lead. That being said, I don't think it is wrong for lead to call it. If C passes or misses and it needs to be called then by all means go a head lead and call it.
One example that I really see is a rebound going the the short corner on leads side. This probably would be seen best by lead. (Unless Trail closes down).

Don't calling a rebound foul if you're straight-lined and that applies to L, C, and T.

Contact on the head or arms, that's a different story.

This misconseption may stem from the T not wanting to get beat down the court and does not close in for the rebounding action. I probably wouldn't want my partner callin in the key from the 28' mark either. Up here they are wanting all officials to "stay home" and help with the rebounding. I'm sure it is the same elsewhere. If the T closes down and the C also they both should have a good angle an the painted area. No matter where you are, move to improve.

Rut:

I think we are on the same page here. I think that too many officials, both you and old, just don't understand positioning and angles. The lack of understanding of angles and positioning causes them to make calls that they should pass on.

MTD. Sr.

When being observed in 3-man, I've also been told that the Lead should seldom call a rebounding foul. The Trail should be stepping down on the shot and theoretically has a better angle anyway, and the C has his half of the lane as it is.

I remember back in 2004. I was the lead in a 2 whistle game. I call a push from behind. I just so happen to have my wife film the game. I watched the tape and guess what no contact from behind. I had a wide enough angle from the position of the camera to actually see that I was too close to the play and I was straight lined.

My two cents

Two person game:

lead has strong side rebounding
trail has perimeter and weakside rebounding

Three person game:

Trail has perimeter rebounding and helps on stong side rebounding
Center has weakside rebounding
Lead has strong side rebounding

The stuff about waist up in my mind is nonsense. You are there watching the play ... How many plays on a rebound or on a shot are played below the waist? A few hip checks and butss that go out... You can watch those as well as watching the play a couple of feet higher when a person makes conatct with the back.. Unless the Ceter is 7'3" the difference between the waist and shoulders on most players is what 3-4 feet and we cant's watch that?

Gotta have the angle but gotta call it as well

Kelvin,
Someone needs to get the feet and the Lead is an a terrible position for that cuz of all the other stuff.

MTD,
Amen!

As a lead, you get straight-lined by the two nearest players, based solely on the actions of the player closest to you (falling forward), you ASSUME that the player behind had to call the contact. VERY BAD IDEA.

At the same time, you get a good angle, you SEE the player (A5) behind the opponent (B5) pushing with the forearm in the small of the back, you SEE A5 get the rebound as a result of the push, and you call the foul on A5.

Bad angle, can't see, can't call it. Good angle, clearly see it, call it. Why would a 3-person crew want to remove 33% of its eyes on plays that are capable of generating fouls that need to be seen by SOMEONE?