Simultaneous charge and block
 

Just found this forum - great stuff.
I am a 2nd year offical... was a spectator at a BV game yesterday - 3 man crew.

Lead calls charge.. C calls block. after conference they reported double foul to table, alternating posession.

Is this correct?

I'm not sure how a double foul could be called. Either the defenceive player was set or he wasn't. Looks like a missed call

they were right -- this is the dreaded blarge. there are ways it can be avoided, and they involve a pregame on the topic as well good crew communication and teamwork.

but the crew was right. The only thing is on a double foul it goes to POI unless the ball was loose.

The Infamous Blarge Returns ...
 

And it can get really complicated if the ball goes in:

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

And BktBallRef has recently given us some good advice on how do avoid the dreaded blarge:

GaOfficial: Welcome to the jungle, I mean, the Forum.

This is wrong two ways. First of all, you always go POI. Sometimes, POI means using the arrow, and sometimes it doesn't.

Second, just because the ball is "loose" does not mean you go to the arrow. Team control does not end on a loose ball, therefore the offensive team would keep the ball. If, however, a shot had been attempted prior to contact, you would use the arrow since there was no team control (unless the basket is made, in which case you would count the basket and give the ball to the defense for and endline throwin.).

Besides being wrong about reporting a double foul, what does being "set" have to do with it either?

GA - welcome. Just remember not everything you read on the interwebs is true.

Ding ding ding ding! Thanks eyezen.

Not only does a player not have to be set to draw a charge, he never has to have been "set."

It happend to Burr a few weeks back.

He was the Lead and sold a block, the Center sold a charge.

They went with the Blarge.....

Most of the guys 'round here subcribe to the "yield to the primary" on the double whistle.

As long as the yielding takes place before the selling, it's still by the book. If not, hope it's what your assigners and state want.

Actually, I believe the quote from BktBallRef refers to when one official has a violation and the other has a foul. The majority of the board here says that when the officials in the above case play give conflicting preliminary foul signals they are obligated to report both. A few of us disagree. A preliminary signal is not binding in any other situation, why should it be here?

Because the case play says so.

Yield, in the sense of withholding your block or charge signal. The primary then goes with what he/she has and we move on.

Dual Coverage Areas
 

Double whistles often occur in the dual coverage areas. In my little corner of Connecticut, when a double whistle occurs in a dual coverage area, we usually yield to the official that the play is moving toward, which is usually the lead.

My Two Cents ...
 

From my pregame:
On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal. Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll talk about it.

From Most Misunderstood Rules list:
A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the playing court when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

I figured as much, just wanted to clarify.

The fact that the highest level of officials who operate under this rule do it this way (report the double foul) on national television should be all you need to know about the intent of this particular case play/rule. Especially since there has been more than one example of this, and no statement from the NCAA saying they'd misapplied a rule.

Actually it doesn't. The word signal does not appear in the case play.
But following this line of reasoning, here is a question. Has anyone here ever reported a double foul when only one official made the preliminary block/charge signal and the other went up with just the fist and waited?

You think to yourself: Oh, my gosh! He called what?? Nothing to do but salvage a split.

Or in this case is it acceptable for the official who did not make the signal to provide information to the official that made one (He cleared out with his inside arm, etc.) and allow him to change his call?

Sounds like a situation I was involved in a few years ago in the State Finals. We reported the double foul but went with AP arrow instead of POI (offense with ball):o

Welcome GA Official

Depending on how many few years ago this was you may have been still correct. This was a rule change for NFHS in 05-06.

Allow me to repeat myself.

The officials at the highest levels also frequently allow blatant travels, as confirmed by my DVR. Apparently their interpretation of that rule is different from mine, too.

The NCAA has never been shy about announcing when officials have mis-applied a rule. Their silence on these plays speaks volumes.

So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul?

Now you're talking crazy. You know very well the difference.

My point is that the actions of the high level officials, along with the corraborating statements of folks here (some of whom have served in high levels of officiating and rules committees), combined with the NCAA's silence when their officials follow the protocol subscribed to by the majority here, should all make it pretty clear.

I'm not playing semantics with you. The case play says one official called a PC and one called a block. Do you actually think they both just raised their fists, didn't signal a prelim, and still reported it as a double foul? That's stupid and you know it. In fact, you even make the point in your post. "So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul? "

No, I was asking a serious question. You have a double whistle. You are certain it is PC, but correctly make no preliminary signal. Your partner quickly signals block. Do you report a double foul, or yield the call to your partner?

Once again, here is verbatim the memo issued in mid Dec from the NCAA national coordinator of men's officials that addresses what a blarge is, how to administer it and how to avoid it. Emphasis mine. NFHS rules and mechanics mirror NCAA-m. NCAA-w do not.



December 16th, 2008

BLARGE: Block/Charge Double Foul Call

A drive or move to the basket may result in contact between the offensive and defensive player. While Refereeing the Defense is one of the pillars of basketball officiating, the official must determine if the defensive player has established initial, legal guarding position: two feet on the floor, in bounds, facing the opponent. The defensive player may move to maintain legal guarding position-laterally and backwards, just not forward or obliquely while also maintaining his own vertical plane (POV-Principal of Verticality). If contact does occur, then the basketball official goes to work.

The official must determine if the contact between A and B is illegal, a Charge by A or a Block by B, or incidental contact where no advantage or disadvantage or rough play to either player has resulted from this contact.


This discussion invokes Men's NCAA Rules and CCA Mechanics.


In the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual, 2008-2009, Section 1.1 Block/Charge Calls p. 20 and Section 1.2 Drives to the Basket p. 21, jurisdiction to determine this call is levied upon the Lead official to have primary coverage if the contact occurs within the Free Throw Lane Lines; however, in case of double whistles, the outside official may take this call as he might have the best look.

Hence, there might be an indeterminate time frame where one official may call and signal "Block" while the other official calls and signals "Charge" nearly simultaneously. Hence, a "BLARGE" may result.


A Blarge is a Double Foul and must be processed as such. It would be incorrect to allow one official's call override or set aside the other's. A discussion of the four types of Blarge Double Foul scenarios: Player and Team Control, Team Control and the two examples of this type of double foul following a FGA where there is loss of team control, will be addressed in this essay.

To avoid a Blarge, by convention the Center and Trail officials are schooled to hold their preliminary signals. That is, they might sound their whistle and stop the clock to signal a foul, but do not add the block or charge signal...hesitating to ensure that indeed the Lead has come up with the call as affirmed by instant eye contact between the Lead and outside calling official. In some situations, it might be the outside official (Center or Trail) who takes this play. This mechanic should always be included in the official's Pre-Game Meeting to help ensure excellent communication, cohesiveness and crew dynamics.


Administering a Blarge:

Player Control, dribbling or moving (pivoting) and contact occurs: by rule in any double foul situation, both A is charged with a personal foul and B would be charged with a personal foul. The ball is administered at the Point of Interruption (POI) and would be given back to A at the spot nearest to where the foul was called , with no reset of the shot clock.

Team Control ( an airborne passer, an interrupted dribble play, a throw in, etc.) when player A makes contact with a defender B. Since A is still in Team Control when the double foul was called, again A would retain possession as they are still in Team Control. Under POI , the ball would be put in play at the closest spot to where the foul occurred, with no reset of the shot clock.

After the release of the ball for a FGA and a Blarge occurs, there is loss of Team Control. With no TC, if A's FGA is successful, POI B would entitle B to a throw in from a non-designated spot along the end line.

If the FGA is not successful and a Blarge occurs after the release, since there is no TC, administration of this double foul would call for the Alternating Possession (AP) arrow-POI-- at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred, with a reset of the shot clock.

Please refer to the 2009 NCAA Basketball Rule Book: 4.53.1.d for POI, 4-3.3.6 for Team Control and 7-5.8,9 for Double Foul POI indications. Also, please review the 2009 NCAA Basketball Case Book, p. 39 A.R. 95 for Double Foul play administration and pp. 69, 70 A.R. 172 for Blarge specific plays.


Blarge Management Key Points: Have a thorough pre-game. Outside officials hold preliminary signals. Know the various scenarios for double fouls. Work for consistent communication and optimal crew chemistry and dynamics.

I am going to get on my soap box once again concerning the dreaded "blarge".

The NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's definitions of guarding and screening a identical (history lesson alert: these definitions go back to the NBCUSC, see Footnote #1). By defnition, it is impossible to have a "blarge". Either B1 (defensive player) has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA and FIBA) a legal guarding position (LGP) prior to the contact between B1 and A1 (offensive player, with the ball).

Yes, the NFHS and NCAA Men's casebook plays tell us to treat this as a double personal foul while the NCAA Women's CCA Officiating Manual that the primary official takes the call. The NFHS and NCAA Men's caseball plays cannot be defended by rule. The best way to handle this type of play is PRE-GAME, PRE-GAME, PRE-GAME.

MTD, Sr.

There But For The Grace Of God Go I ...
 

Not me. I'm avoiding calling a blarge if at all possible, so I'm going to defer to my partner if he makes his preliminary signal before I make any preliminary signal, even, if, in my mind, my call is not going to be the same as his.

I've been very fortunate in that I've never had a blarge call in twenty-eight years, but it's not only a matter of a good pregame, and good communication with my partner, it's also a matter of good luck. Over the years. I've had a few times where the gym has been so noisy, and my partner's whistle came at the exact second as my whistle, that I didn't realize that my partner had blown his whistle, and I gave, and in some cases, sold, a preliminary signal, to later discover that my partner had also blown his whistle, and had also given a preliminary signal. Only good luck has kept my string of no blarges alive, with both of us always giving the same preliminary signal. Knock on wood.

You actually think the case play implies that both of them reported it to the table without the other knowing? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but it's irrelevant. The answer is obvious.

If I want the double foul (because my partner reached across the court and made the wrong call in front of me), I'll quickly signal and "sell" the PC. Then we'll go double.

Otherwise (99.999999999834% of the time), I'll defer to my partner (who made the quick sell) and we'll discuss it later.

I'm tempted to call this a dumb question, to be honest, because I think you knew the answer before you asked.

I didn't know the answer. I am trying to understand exactly how everybody sees the rule in question. I find it interesting that you use the word sell in your description. You will quickly sell your call to counteract your partner's sale only if you feel he was poaching in your primary? You will yield the call if it takes place in a borderline coverage area, even if you're certain your call was correct? This, to me, is even worse than the double foul, if it means that a quick, incorrect signal should take precedence over a more deliberate consideration of the play.

The Soap So Pure It Floats! ...
 

Wow. That's better than Ivory soap's 99.44%. I didn't think you could go higher than that real life.

Let me rephrase, if I think he's 120% wrong; I'll do what I can to mitigate the damage.

If I'm not 122% sure he's wrong, I'm going to defer and assume he saw something I missed.

I mentioned my area because it's the scenario I can most easily imagine me doing something so stupid as initiating a blarge.

This is what bothers me about this case. You feel compelled to suffer in silence, even if you think your partner is 119% wrong, simply because he signaled first. I simply do not believe this was the intent when this case was written.

Trust Your Partner, Stay In Your Primary ...
 

In a typical game, I think that my partner may make an incorrect call a few times, as I'm sure he thinks the same for some of my calls. Sometimes we will discuss this on the court, as with an out of bounds call that might have been slightly tipped, or with a violation before a foul, or a foul before a violation, but most of the time I just assume that he had a different, and possibly better, look than me, as I hope that he thinks of my calls, and we play on. On some occasions, if it's important enough, I will say to my partner, "So what did see on that play?", during halftime, or after the game.

The same way we all saw it the last half-dozen times it's been discussed this season.

I'm sure if something new / different / definitive had been issued by any of the governing bodies, it would have been reported.

So, how do you do it when your partner signals a block while your hand is up and you're thinking it was a PC?

If we both have any kind of foul signal we put our heads together and come out with one call.

So, if he comes up with a block, and you hold your prelim until discussion; you're going to try to convince him of a PC?

Conceivably, yes.

Okay, then.