Questionable T?
 

I'd love to post this anonymously, but I'll take the blame here.

1st "T" of the year last night. Last year I had about 15 total and all were good. I have done 17 games to date, mostly varsity.

Here's the situation. #10 for visitor fouls #21 for home team hard. My partner has the foul. I hear #10 say something to the effect about "bringing that soft a$$ something something," but I can make it out real well because she is wearing a mouth guard. I let it go, it's fairly early in the game and no other problems. Then 3 plays later, 10 and 21 on a Free throw 21 has inside position and gets knocked to the floor hard, she has to leave the game, they were not my responsibility so, I missed exactly what happened. Half time.

Partners talk about what happened in 1st half and I let them know ( I am the R ) that we weren't going to put up with any trash talk for #10 and we talked about the 2 hard contacts between 10 and 21.

Visitors down by about 14 in 3rd and they are making a comeback cut the lead to about 7. Home team scores and 10 is mouthing off, but because she has a mouth piece in I can't make out what she is saying. Her mannerisms lead me to believe that she was complaining about the no call, perhaps there was a missed walk on home team, I don't know. I was in "C" and closest to the action. I "T" her up for mouthing off.

Coach asks why I "T'ed" her and I explain that she had trash talked earlier and I felt she was doing the same thing this time, but I couldn't make out her words because of the mouth guard. Coach not happy. Fans less happy and they are riding me the rest of the game. Home team runs off 10 straight and has a good lead again. Visitors cut it to a tie in the fourth then we have to call a lot of fouls in the last minute and home team wins it at the Free throw line by 4 points making 4 of 6 FTs.

How bad was this "T". I don't feel good about it because I couldn't make out what she said, but there had been an accumulative behavior to that point.

Regarding 21 going to the floor on the FT. I once heard that whenever a player goes to the ground, we have to know why. Maybe if your Ps knew this they could have called a foul which hopefully would prevent the T later on.

As far as the mouthing off goes, even quoting one or two words is better than none. I think you took a chance with not knowing what she said. Maybe she gave a gesture that is inappropriate.

It does sound, albeit in only a small way, that 10 is a bit of a loose cannon, so that T isn't a total surprise.

Edit: of us at the forum, only you were there. How would you have felt if you didn't call the T? Were 10's actions escalating?

This sounds like one of those HTBT plays, but Ts aren't warranted only because of what players/coaches say. Their actions can lead to a good T as well.

Her mannerisms lead me to believe that she was complaining about the no call

I wouldn't have told the coach about something that happened in the 1st half which lead to a 2nd half T though. JMO

Coach asks why I "T'ed" her and I explain that she had trash talked earlier

I don't like a T when you have no smoking gun.

In a sitch like yours, I like to enlist the coach's help. After the half, I might have spoken to her coach: "Coach, #10 has been rough and has shown some attitude out there. I know we both want to keep her in the game."

This isn't exactly a warning, but rather information about what you've observed. And if you end up giving her a T, it will be no surprise to the coach.

Good stuff! I had a similar situation with a mouthy knucklehead. After reporting a foul, I asked the coach to help me out with #44 (knucklehead) as he was too mouthy & should focus on playing ball as opposed to officiating. He pulled the player out of the game immediately, got in his face & sent him to the back to the table.
Needless to say, when I had to take care of business (about 3 minutes later) coach already knew the deal.

I tried...

Excellent advice, thanks. Coach did remove the player at that point and this was a good player, skill wise, but her team came back better without her.

Sounds like another "had to be there" situation. Mannerisms/body language may give you ammo to hand out a T, but personally I would probably not have T'd cuz you didn't hear what the player said.

You T'd her for mouthing off. Most coaches are going to ask "What did she say?" The problem comes up with the fact that you told the coach you "couldn't make out her words". That's kind of like getting pulled over by the police for speeding, but they can't tell you how fast you were going. Coach is unhappy, and rightfully so...

MA Ref:

Does the Mass. mandatory mouth guard rule make this kind of action harder to officiate?

MTD, Sr.

Lord knows I'm in favor of grabbing T's when I can get them, but I always make sure I can justify them, usually, .

Since T's are a point of emphasis for me this year I'm gonna go with NOT a good T. :cool:

Mouth guard isn't mandatory anymore (thankfully). It was changed to just being "recommended" to teams after only 1 or 2 seasons. Since they dropped it, my experience is that most kids don't wear them anymore. They weren't used to wearing them and, in some cases they found it difficult to breathe, and point guards bringing the ball up the court called out plays that sounded all garbled. I can't tell you how many times I saw one dropped on the floor, and since they couldn't play without it, kids just pick it up and put it back in their mouth.

But back to your point, when they were required, most kids took them out to speak, which made our job easier when it comes to listening for unsportsmanlike conduct. No point in trash-talking your opponent when they can't understand you...

Both situations should have been addressed -- talking to the player, the captain, the coach.

I wouldn't give a T if I wasn't reasonably sure what was said or the actions weren't obvious to all involved.

IMO you should have said something directly to #10 at some point prior to the 'T' if you knew she was a problem child and then told the coach "hey, we've warned #10 about her behavior".

I think the bolded verbiage is unnecessary. Not our job to tell players what to focus on. Let the coach know you are having a problem and leave it at that....IMO

My mentor said the same thing. I have to remember that less is more...

:eek:

Could have used this advice/tactic....and I will in the future.

8th Grade Girls game. V down by 30 or so. Really a route. One of the only V Girls with any skills is getting frustrated - and it shows. I had the opportunity to talk to her during an inbounds play and as I handed her the ball I told her she needed to relax and play the game as she was getting a little "out of control." I then handed her the ball and off we go.

A few minutes later there's a scrum on the floor for a loose ball and she is fighting for it. TWEET! Now, I normally go toward the action (as I've been taught) and say something like, "easy, easy," trying to let them know we're here and the play is over. She keeps fighting for the ball and wrestling and swinging (I didn't call a foul). TWEET! I yelled, "ENOUGH!

Well, apparently, I hurt this Girls feelings. At the next break, the coach told me this young lady was on the bench crying and I shouldn't have raised my voice to her. I explained to the coach what happened previosuly about my warning and she said ok, she wasn't aware of that and asked me to inform her of this type of situation in the future. My partner, whom I worked with many times before agreed with the coach and said I was a bit over the top - I just didn't want it to go any further.

While there was no real opportunity to do so in my case (IMO), it's a good point and lesson learned for me - use the coach.

I believe that you missed the appropriate T at the time of the first inappropriate comment. That situation stayed with you and definitely impacted the choice that you made later.

I'm against getting someone later for something that they did earlier and weren't punished for, but as you noted there is a cumulative effect here. That is natural when dealing with people.

Personally, I never repeat with a player said to earn a T. When the coach asks "What did he say?" I have a few standard answers:
"He used inappropriate language."
"He used the f-word."
"Something that he shouldn't have."
"I'm not going to repeat it. You'll have to check with your player."
"It's not what he said, it was the way that he said it."

There's no crying in basketball!
 

grunewar:

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Sometimes you have to put some extra pizazz in your voice.

About six years ago in a USSSA Girls' 12U Fast Pitch Tournament the pitcher for the the really good team liked to quick pitch after every foul ball. After the umpteenth time of calling no pitch her coach got upset with me (why am I always the bad guy, :D) and finally went out to "calm' her down. As he was returning to the dugout he yelled to me: "Look what you did, you made her cry you jerk!" She was indeed crying but the coach did not stop in the dugout and did not collect $200 as he continued on to the parking lot, :D.

Second storying about crying. Daryl and I were officiating the Michigan AAU Girls' 18U Tournament (qualifier to the national) about ten years ago. I called a foul on a girl and she turned to me and used a very unlady like word, which earned her a TF for unsportsmanlike conduct. The TF was her fifth foul; when I informed her that she had fouled out, she started crying. :D

MTD, Sr.

I had no idea you were so heartless, MTD. :D

You big meanie!!!

:D

Just my $.02!

Game management tools are very necessary in officiating. Use all tools required. You should have had a coaches and captains meeting.

If you did not hear the words completely and grandma could not hear them in the first row,

Talk to the player, "#10 I need your help in this situation, I heard parts of words and I am not going to fill in the blanks. Your the teams best player and they need your help."

Talk to the captain that is on the floor, "Captain, I need your help. #10 is out of control and I do not want to hear anything that comes close to taunting!"

Talk to the coach, "Coach, I need your help with #10. I did not hear all of the words but I am sure that she was out of line. Thanks, coach."

There will be no questions when you T her later for a similar act.

1. I think your grandma criterion is a poor standard to use.
It doesn't matter what anyone in the crowd or on the bench can or cannot hear. What is important is what the players say and do and what the official on the court hears and observes.

2. If you are sure that the player was out of line, then that needs to be penalized with a technical foul, for sure.

3. Why would you advocate not assessing a penalty for the first act, but waiting for a similar act later in the game? What if you don't fully hear the words again the second time? What makes your handling of the situation different? I believe that similar situations need to be handled as similarly as possible.

[QUOTE=Terrapins Fan;563042]I'd love to post this anonymously, but I'll take the blame here.

I hear #10 say something to the effect about "bringing that soft a$$ something something," but I can make it out real well because she is wearing a mouth guard. QUOTE]

Here is my opinion for what its worth... (even if this is not a big deal) If you hear something like this walk up to the player and tell them to knock the garbage off and play... The opponent will see you are adressing it so it does not escalate-- Coaches may even ask you what she did... Even if it did not warrant a T prevent officiating here will go along way...

Use the captain and tell the capatin that #10 is getting mouthy...

Use the coach and have the coach get the player under control...

What am I missing here? I can't understand the debate about warnings or talking to the coach or captains. If you heard the word "a$$" come out of her mouth...WHACK! T will be served®. It's profanity and the rule couldn't be clearer. It doesn't matter what the context was or what garbled words followed. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Any tolerance only teaches the player that he or she can get away next time with a warning too.

I concur with the general sentiment of your post, but I have to disagree with your specific statement that this word is profanity.


White #10 to her nearby teammate: "Oh, I think I just bruised my a$$ taking that charge."

White #10 to a nearby official: "I hate it when my dad yells from the stands. He makes such an a$$ of himself that it's embarrassing."

Do you have a T in both of these situations?

In the first case maybe not. In the second, why would a player express her feelings using a cuss word to an official? Doesn't seem likely.

In neither of those examples did the conversation take place within the scope of the game. I think the original sitch did and seemed like an attempt at taunting on top of using profanity.

And that is why a T is appropriate in the given situation.

You know that a player addressed an opponent in an unsporting manner. The use of certain words is indicative of that, but not in and of itself the offense.

I would counsel you to refrain from putting your individual opinion of what words are appropriate and which are not into your decisions. There are clearly some that are obvious, but there are far more that are not. When it comes to judging language, it is better to operate within widely accepted parameters.

I agree, T...but be careful with the phrase "profanity." An English teacher/Varsity Coach taught me the difference between vulgarity and profanity...there is a difference, and I had it wrong.....

I disagree. Widely accepted by whom? Society? Coaches? Administrators? Other officials? Further...our individual opinions are exactly why we get paid to do what we do.

"Widely Accepted" parameters sounds an awful like concensus to me. Concensus has no place in officiating a basketball game.

Just my humble opinion.

I have come to the conclusion that all Ts are questionable to someone. Even when there is a clear violation of the rules, someone that was not in that situation is going to have something to say. The best thing any official can do is try to see if the people they work for has a problem with them and did the people you work with think something could have been done to prevent them. Otherwise, someone is always going to have something to say. I have given 3 Ts this year (more than some years already) and someone feels they did nothing wrong. You are never going to win with everyone, just do what you feel is best and hope the people you work for accept your decisions. Sometimes that is based on your reputation or stature as an official.

Peace

Ok, then best of luck doing it your way. I sincerely hope that it brings you success. I only offered my advice. You certainly don't have to take it.

There definitely are things that I do which are counter to the widespread practice of others.

Inappropriate language is a difficult concept to officiate. I happen to like the advice presented by the US Soccer Federation.
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post563167

It has the benefit of not requiring me to make decisions about individual words or phrases. For people like yourself who seem to take a different approach, I always wonder what makes the list and what doesn't?

T or not? (? to anyone, not just BZ)
1. d@mn
2. Jesus Christ
3. son of gun
4. dang
5. suck
6. crap
7. OMG

In TN in the State rules meetings for Coaches & Referees, #5 was announced as unsporting language to be punished. So at least for that one I will follow the State's instruction.

Depending on the context, I would say all could be T'able offenses. Same as "Are you kidding me?"

Exactly. I could say yes or no to each of those words/phrases, depending on the situation...

What about "ALLAH!!!" or JOBU!!!" or my personal favorite for those practicing pastafarianism "Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!" ?

Or, you could be like Kobe, who reportedly learned to swear in many different languages so as not to "offend the refs" or anyone else present in ear-shot.......unless of course they happen to speak/understand the language he was swearing in. :eek:

I've T'd 1,2,5,6,7. I've also ignored all of them at given times.

Further, I've T'd "sh!t," and ignored "Bull sh1t" once.

Of course, the BS reference was a coach standing next to me asking, "Isn't it a T if he says Bull sh!t like that?" I knew the hot head player he was talking about, but I hadn't heard the expletive.

So all of you consider the CONTEXT of the speech, not just the word itself. That is the position that I have advocated. However, the position of BZ is very different. He says that the context doesn't matter.

He seems to operate by a list of "magic words" that constitute profanity and will earn an automatic T.
Therefore, my post was aimed at getting people's opinions of which words were always T'able. I'm not after an answer of "depends on the context."

Thank you. That is the kind of information that I was seeking.
Anyone else got something such as that?

JUCO refs in Northern California have been told that swearing is NOT a T worthy offense.

I don't do JUCO but several officiating buddies do and they have told me about the email.....

I work JUCO games, and sometimes *I* feel like swearing...

So, during warmups, you overhear one player talking to his teammate about his science project, "Yea, I used my mom's vaccum cleaner to <B>suck</B> the air out of the chamber."

Would you start the game with a T? Would the state back you on this? Or, is context still important?

I'm unable to think of a word that's always T-able without regard to context. There is a catch-all context that I will never T for, regardless of the word.

"Ref, #24 just called me a stupid D@n_r3f."

:D

My vote for post of the week.

How about: "Ref, #24 said you are a stupid *$^&%#$."

(Actually, your correction is funnier.)

This is why saying that certain words or certain comments are and "automatic" foul only get you in trouble. What if a player says those things after blowing out their knee? Are you we going to be Mr. Tough Guy and T them up then?

I have probably heard all those words and not given a single T. The context was not about the officiating or the opponent in anyway. I have heard coaches use harsher or much more profane words and not given a T, because the comments were said to me one on one and were not about me personally. Like one time a coach said with a complete smile, "That kid could fu@kin play at all; can you find me someone else to take his spot?" No one heard the comments but me and the coach. Sorry, I am not giving a T for that.

Peace

I took the liberty. :)

In that case, as long as it wasn't followed by, "and your partner agreed."

Tonight's forecast: Dark. Continued dark throughout most of the evening ...
 

I didn't realize that George Carlin was an official?

#2- Yes
The rest, in my book no.

Thanks for all the advice. I thought in my 9th year, I had a handle on it, I am still learning.

Really?

What makes #2 worse than the others?

'Jesus Christ' is profane in some parts of the country, and not in others. Around here it's nothing for most people. Well, except at the evangelical schools... Call as appropriate to your venue.

I Can Handle A Little French Also ...
 

Thanks to my trusty dictionary, I'm getting pretty good at translating mbyron into English.

Translation: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," which is used to advise people to adapt to the culture of places that they visit.

I am fully aware that "JC" might offend some people but my point being it doesn't' matter whether you're in Beijing, China or China Grove, Alabama, #2 is like no others in that list in that it has to be taken in with context and situational awareness. I can't think of any situation where JC is automatic like TFan suggests.

As one who is instinctively offended by this (although less so than I used to be), I agree.
To me, if you can imagine a scenario in which a player could say it and you would not call a T, you cannot call it "automatic."

Hey, I almost always use English! You're just dumbing me down. :D

lol ???
 

That makes it sound so harsh. I'm just having some fun. I find the language in your posts to be fascinating. On one end of the Forum posting spectrum we have some younger officials who post like they text, or keyboard, like my daughter, no capital letters, acronyms, etc., and on the other end of the Forum posting spectrum, we have mbyron, our resident writer, and philosopher.

Snaqs and Nevada:

MTD, Jr., had a boys' JrHS doubleheader today at a school about 12 miles from Ohio Northern Univ. in Ada, Ohio (which is about 75 mi from Toledo); he was officiating with a verteran official who is a freind of mine. I originally I was not scheduled to officiate today, but last week I picked up a boys' JrHS doubleheader at Ada JrHS from a friend down there who needed a replacement; I took the game because it would give me a chance to have Jr. buy is old man dinner after our games, :D.

Without going into details I arrived at Ada JrHS to find that the game had been canceled and the officials were never notified. So I hustled over to Mark's game and made it there by halftime of the 7th grade game.

In the third quater Mark called a foul on H33. I did not notice it until he called the foul was the H33 was player with an artifical leg. He was getting up and down the court pretty good. After the game I told Mark that I didn't realize the H33 had an artificial leg until he called a foul on him, to which his parther replied: "What a meanie!"

Like father like son, :D.

MTD, Sr.

Artificial Intelligence For Assistant Coaches ???
 

I had a player with an artificial leg last season. He could do everything else that the other players could do, except stop, and start, on a dime. It took him a few strides to get up to speed, and a few steps to slow down.