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Scrapper1 Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:24am

More handshake idiocy
 
Did my 3rd high school game of the season last night, here in MA. First two games, the handshake was not an issue as nobody seemed to even realize we were supposed to be part of it.

Last night, we get to the game site and site administration did not meet with us before the game about the handshake. Somebody (who I thought was a janitor, due to the keys hanging from his belt) brought us the sign-in sheet. We did the game without incident. But because nobody met us and told us how the handshake would run and who would meet us when we came off the floor, we are excused from participating. So we left at the final horn.

The AD comes to the locker room. "So you guys need to fill out the form for not staying?" I told him that we were excused because of the reasons I stated above. Now he gets hot. "Somebody met you! You signed in, right?" I tried to explain the protocol, and he says we're "ridiculous". We only want to do it "by the book" (which is probably true). And that "common sense overrules the protocol".

And then, of course, he says he's going to block us from coming back for the rest of the year. I said that didn't seem right, considering we followed the rules. He says "I can block anybody for any reason I want! I'm calling MIAA and giving them your names." I said "Fine, as long as you're man enough to tell them WHY we didn't stay."

So now, even though I didn't have to fill out a report for the game itself, I am going to fill out a report on the AD's behavior, just so my side of the story gets to the MIAA.

This is really stupid.

Bad Zebra Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:27am

At least two reports to be filed...sounds like more paperwork...more bureaucracy..more work for some state employee....probably exactly the result they wanted. I agree...sounds really stupid.

fullor30 Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:30am

I feel for you, brotha..........

rockyroad Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 560293)
I feel your brotha..........

OK, that's just gross.

And scrapper, hpw long do you think this idiocy will last? I asked one of our local guys who is part of the WOA executive whatchamacallit, and he said that this topic has never even come up and that it is so ridiculous that it probably never will come up. So are you MA guys all alone in this?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Dec 21, 2008 04:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560290)
Did my 3rd high school game of the season last night, here in MA. First two games, the handshake was not an issue as nobody seemed to even realize we were supposed to be part of it.

Last night, we get to the game site and site administration did not meet with us before the game about the handshake. Somebody (who I thought was a janitor, due to the keys hanging from his belt) brought us the sign-in sheet. We did the game without incident. But because nobody met us and told us how the handshake would run and who would meet us when we came off the floor, we are excused from participating. So we left at the final horn.

The AD comes to the locker room. "So you guys need to fill out the form for not staying?" I told him that we were excused because of the reasons I stated above. Now he gets hot. "Somebody met you! You signed in, right?" I tried to explain the protocol, and he says we're "ridiculous". We only want to do it "by the book" (which is probably true). And that "common sense overrules the protocol".

And then, of course, he says he's going to block us from coming back for the rest of the year. I said that didn't seem right, considering we followed the rules. He says "I can block anybody for any reason I want! I'm calling MIAA and giving them your names." I said "Fine, as long as you're man enough to tell them WHY we didn't stay."

So now, even though I didn't have to fill out a report for the game itself, I am going to fill out a report on the AD's behavior, just so my side of the story gets to the MIAA.

This is really stupid.


Scrapper1:

I feel your pain. It is amazing how stupid people with graduate degrees in education can be.

MTD, Sr.

ma_ref Sun Dec 21, 2008 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560290)
So now, even though I didn't have to fill out a report for the game itself, I am going to fill out a report on the AD's behavior, just so my side of the story gets to the MIAA.

Not sure if it'll make a difference, but you may want to send a copy of your report to the school's principal and/or school district superintendant. Something tells me the AD isn't just a headache for game officials.

mbyron Sun Dec 21, 2008 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 560293)
I feel your brotha..........

I strongly discourage this behavior, since he's a lawyer and won't like it. :D

fullor30 Sun Dec 21, 2008 06:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 560311)
OK, that's just gross.

And scrapper, hpw long do you think this idiocy will last? I asked one of our local guys who is part of the WOA executive whatchamacallit, and he said that this topic has never even come up and that it is so ridiculous that it probably never will come up. So are you MA guys all alone in this?

YIKES.............I corrected it.:eek:

Coltdoggs Sun Dec 21, 2008 06:53pm

So did you shake HIS hand after he told you he was banning you! :D

BayStateRef Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:00pm

Scrapper,

You know the drill, but I am posting this for those outside Massachusetts who do not. You followed the procedure. Period. It is not your job to make the AD do his. If he does not, you walk, call your assignor and let him deal wit the A.D. You are not required to fill out the MIAA paperwork and you should not.

Post-Game Handshake Cancellation- Scenario #3

In cases where the home school does not fulfill the protocol responsibilities, thereby impacting concerns over health and safety of the post-game handshake participants, the game officials may exit the court immediately following the final buzzer. In these situations, the referee will be required to make contact with the game official assignor within 24 hours. Upon receiving a report confirming the reasons for the officials’ decision not to participate, the assignor will communicate these concerns to the building athletic director (first report). Subsequent reports will be directed to the school principal, followed by the MIAA District Committee chairperson.

As an aside...at my board meeting this month, the interpreter noted how the MIAA is so hot to push us to enforce the handshake, but it gives a waiver to schools from the "home team must wear white" rule and refuses to take an active role in requiring a coaching box be marked.

And my own pet peeve: which shot-clock rule do we use? The one posted on the MIAA Web site or the one included in the MIAA Blue Book (which lists all MIAA rules for all sports). Hint: they are not the same.

bigdogrunnin Mon Dec 22, 2008 06:36am

Quote:

and

Scrapper1:

I feel your pain. It is amazing how stupid people with graduate degrees in education can be.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
IAABO (Lake Erie District) Board #55
Toledo, Ohio

Gentlemen, I am a school administrator, and I do certainly take offense to both these statements. Don't let a few bad apples dictate your opinion of us all. That is akin to saying that one bad official means we are all horrible. Not true in either case.

I will also add that ANY official that comes to my campus is treated professionally, always. They are provided a safe, clean, and secure area to change and talk. They are provided with drinks (gatorade, water), towels, and showers with hot water. They are also greeted upon entering the facility and escorted onto and off of the floor before, during, and after the game, including an escort to their vehicles upon leaving. No one is allowed to speak with the officials before, during, or after the game. Also officials working at my school don't have to worry about coming to me in regards to fan behavior either, because I am already addressing it. We police the fans to ensure that they are practicing good sportsmanship, no foul-mouthed comments or yelling and screaming at the officials. First time + warning, second time = going home with NO refund. OH, and if we can, we try to have something for the officials to eat or snack on as well.

I will finish by adding that I am a tad disappointed that your comments were even made, and I, personally and professionally, would expect better from fellow officials . . . especially from those on this forum that I have come to admire and respect.

sj Mon Dec 22, 2008 08:35am

Just so I can follow is it a MA policy that the officials stay out on the court and shake hands with all the players and coaches after a game. Unless the school doesn't do certain things. Is that what your referring too.

chartrusepengui Mon Dec 22, 2008 08:54am

Speaking of handshakes - Did a vG game friday and all goes well. At final buzzer we go to our dressing area. A minute or so later there is a knock on the door. I open it to find the girls from BOTH teams at the door. They shook my partner's and my hand and thanked us for coming. I've had a player come and do that but this was the entire team from both schools. It was kinda nice for a change.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ma_ref (Post 560385)
Not sure if it'll make a difference, but you may want to send a copy of your report to the school's principal and/or school district superintendant. Something tells me the AD isn't just a headache for game officials.

I'm going to send a copy to the MIAA and to the school's principal. I'm going to send them "certified" or however you get delivery confirmation. I don't want anybody to be able to say that they didn't see it.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 560488)
Scrapper,

You know the drill, but I am posting this for those outside Massachusetts who do not. You followed the procedure. Period. It is not your job to make the AD do his. If he does not, you walk, call your assignor and let him deal wit the A.D. You are not required to fill out the MIAA paperwork and you should not.

Yup. In the interest of full disclosure, I have to state that I was wrong about one aspect of the Protocol when I talked wit the AD. I insisted that the public announcement stating that there would be a handshake ceremony had to be made prior to the beginning of the game. That's not the case, however. The announcement has to be made anytime before the conclusion of the game. I sent an email to the AD acknowledging that I had that part wrong.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sj (Post 560551)
Just so I can follow is it a MA policy that the officials stay out on the court and shake hands with all the players and coaches after a game. Unless the school doesn't do certain things. Is that what your referring too.

The teams line up and shake hands and the officials are supposed to stand at midcourt to observe this glorious display of good sportsmanship.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:37am

Here's a question for the lawyers out there. If the AD does have me blocked from receiving assignments at his school simply because I followed the protocol, is that legal? Is there any recourse for me?

sj Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560589)
The teams line up and shake hands and the officials are supposed to stand at midcourt to observe this glorious display of good sportsmanship.

Scheez. I guess that's what the original poster is referring to when he talks about "more" handshake idiocy. Meaning on top of the policy itself he's having to put up with this other protocol stuff. Those guys are sitting ducks standing out there.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 560311)
And scrapper, hpw long do you think this idiocy will last?

Sorry, rocky, I read your post yesterday and forgot to respond. The honest answer is that I don't know. I'm hoping that a couple seasons will go by and everyone will see that it's being done sporadically, at best; and that it's not really accomplishing what they thought it would. They'll blame the officials, of course, but maybe it will be enough that either they'll drop it, or it will just die out.

chartrusepengui Mon Dec 22, 2008 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560590)
Here's a question for the lawyers out there. If the AD does have me blocked from receiving assignments at his school simply because I followed the protocol, is that legal? Is there any recourse for me?

Do you really WANT to go back there and work knowing the AD is a yutz?

Da Official Mon Dec 22, 2008 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 560653)
Do you really WANT to go back there and work knowing the AD is a yutz?

That's what I'm thinking...why go back? LOL!

Well, you know what they say 'officials love abuse'.......(just kidding!)

Adam Mon Dec 22, 2008 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 560653)
Do you really WANT to go back there and work knowing the AD is a yutz?

If it was me, I would. Mainly because I'd hate being told I couldn't, and I'd hate letting the dictate this. That said, if you go back, you can be sure the AD will do it by the book next time.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui (Post 560653)
Do you really WANT to go back there and work knowing the AD is a yutz?

That's beside the point. The point is whether my rights have been infringed. That's why I asked for a lawyer's opinion.

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 22, 2008 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin (Post 560542)
Gentlemen, I am a school administrator, and I do certainly take offense to both these statements. Don't let a few bad apples dictate your opinion of us all. That is akin to saying that one bad official means we are all horrible. Not true in either case.

I will also add that ANY official that comes to my campus is treated professionally, always. They are provided a safe, clean, and secure area to change and talk. They are provided with drinks (gatorade, water), towels, and showers with hot water. They are also greeted upon entering the facility and escorted onto and off of the floor before, during, and after the game, including an escort to their vehicles upon leaving. No one is allowed to speak with the officials before, during, or after the game. Also officials working at my school don't have to worry about coming to me in regards to fan behavior either, because I am already addressing it. We police the fans to ensure that they are practicing good sportsmanship, no foul-mouthed comments or yelling and screaming at the officials. First time + warning, second time = going home with NO refund. OH, and if we can, we try to have something for the officials to eat or snack on as well.

You are the exception, not the rule. But you knew that.

BillyMac Mon Dec 22, 2008 09:59pm

Please ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin (Post 560542)
I will also add that ANY official that comes to my campus is treated professionally, always. They are provided a safe, clean, and secure area to change and talk. They are provided with drinks (Gatorade, water), towels, and showers with hot water. They are also greeted upon entering the facility and escorted onto and off of the floor before, during, and after the game, including an escort to their vehicles upon leaving. No one is allowed to speak with the officials before, during, or after the game. Also officials working at my school don't have to worry about coming to me in regards to fan behavior either, because I am already addressing it. We police the fans to ensure that they are practicing good sportsmanship, no foul-mouthed comments or yelling and screaming at the officials. First time + warning, second time = going home with NO refund. OH, and if we can, we try to have something for the officials to eat or snack on as well.

Can I work some games at your school. I'll even do junior varsity and/or freshman games.

BillyMac Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:01pm

Defenseless, Lame Duck Officials ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560589)
The teams line up and shake hands and the officials are supposed to stand at midcourt to observe this glorious display of good sportsmanship.

I also believe that their jurisdiction ends with the approval of the final score, thus leaving them defenseless, lame ducks.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:16pm

Here's my report to the MIAA, regarding the game in the original post of this thread:

Quote:

To whom it may concern:

The purpose of this letter is to explain why the officials did not stay to observe the Post-Game Handshake ceremony following the contest between Team A High School and Team B High School on December 20, 2008 and to report the conversation between the Team A High School Athletic Director (name withheld) and me following the contest.

First, the officials did not stay for the PGHS because, in our understanding, the site administration did not fulfill its responsibilities as laid out in the MIAA’s Post-Game Handshake Protocol. According to the Protocol published on the MIAA’s website,

“[t]he site manager will greet the game officials upon their arrival and discuss/plan the post game handshake. Among the most important discussion topics should be the site manager’s or designated person’s (possibly police/security) designated location during the post-game handshake and the plan for exiting the court following the ceremony.”

This meeting and discussion did not happen. I know that Mr. AD believes that it did, but I wish to state as clearly as possible that it simply did not. This can be confirmed by my partner, (name withheld); the JV officials will also confirm that they did not have this meeting and discussion. Upon our arrival, we were met by a gentleman who had us sign a pay voucher. He did not introduce himself as the site manager, nor did he discuss the PGHS ceremony with us. In fact, I had assumed that Mr. AD was the site manager, since he is the Athletic Director and was present at the game. I did not learn until the following night that he was not acting as the site director. Our only interaction with Mr. AD before the game was to shake his hand and basically say “Nice to see you”.

Since we did not have the conversation that seems to be required by the Protocol, even when we saw Mr. AD before the game, we believed that we were not required to stay for the handshake. Additionally, I filed a report with my assignor immediately upon returning home after the game, following the instructions in the “Post-Game Handshake Cancellation – Scenario #3” of the MIAA’s Protocol.

I believe that we acted properly, although it was perceived differently by Mr. AD. If my understanding of the Protocol is incorrect, I am willing to be corrected; but I honestly believe that we did what we were directed to do.

Secondly, following the game, Mr. AD came to the officials’ dressing room to ask why we had not stayed for the handshake. When I explained that I thought we were excused because we had not been met before the game to go over the ceremony, he stated that we had, in fact, been greeted. (In the interest of full disclosure, I also stated that the public announcement about the ceremony had to be made before the start of the game. I was wrong about that, and have since contacted Mr. AD to apologize for that error.) When I tried to explain that the required discussion of the plans for the ceremony had not taken place, he became heated. He called us “ridiculous” and said that “common sense overrules the protocol”.

He then said he was going to report us to the MIAA and let them “deal with us”, and that he was going to tell our assignor to “excuse” us from any further assignments at Team A High School. When I said that it seemed petty to block us simply because we followed the rules, he answered, “I can block anybody for any reason I want to!” At that point, students entered the locker room and Mr. AD left.

I am committed to adhering to the MIAA’s Post-Game Handshake Protocol. I have no problem with following it, unless I am punished for doing so. I do, however, have a problem with a school administrator coming to the officials’ locker room and making threats and attempting to bully the officials. The irony of using such tactics in the effort to improve sportsmanship is absolutely exquisite.

As I’ve said previously, if my understanding of the Protocol is incorrect, I am more than willing to learn from my mistakes.

Adam Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 560838)
I also believe that their jurisdiction ends with the approval of the final score, thus leaving them defenseless, lame ducks.

No way I'm approving the score before I leave the court. I want recourse in case someone does or says something stupid.

BillyMac Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:42pm

Confirm, Or Not Confirm ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 560849)
No way I'm approving the score before I leave the court. I want recourse in case someone does or says something stupid.

I don't think you have a choice in the Bay State. I'm sure Scrapper1 will confirm, or not confirm this aspect for us.

Adam Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:43pm

I think you're right, and it's my 2nd biggest problem with the hand shake garbage.

Jburt Tue Dec 23, 2008 07:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 560859)
I don't think you have a choice in the Bay State. I'm sure Scrapper1 will confirm, or not confirm this aspect for us.

This is correct. The score is confirmed before the PGHS and we as officials do not have any jurisdiction over the PGHS. Its up to the site admin and coaches. My understanding is that fighting will be penalized by the state. The score confirmation has also been an issue with our insurance policy which apparently doesn't include the PGHS since the score has been confirmed.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jburt (Post 560922)
The score is confirmed before the PGHS and we as officials do not have any jurisdiction over the PGHS. Its up to the site admin and coaches. My understanding is that fighting will be penalized by the state.

That makes no sense. If you don't have any jurisdiction to deal with misbehavior, then why do they want you there?

I know that it is an MIAA thing, but the NFHS books directly contradict this policy.

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560931)
That makes no sense. If you don't have any jurisdiction to deal with misbehavior, then why do they want you there?

To participate in the warm glow of good sportsmanship. We are literally part of the celebration; no longer officiating, but joining with the rest of the participants to express our mutual respect and admiration for the work the others have done that night. Hold on, I'm tearing up. . .

Quote:

I know that it is an MIAA thing, but the NFHS books directly contradict this policy.
Sadly, this policy comes directly from Mary Struckoff who issued this ruling at the request of the MIAA.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560647)
Sorry, rocky, I read your post yesterday and forgot to respond. The honest answer is that I don't know. I'm hoping that a couple seasons will go by and everyone will see that it's being done sporadically, at best; and that it's not really accomplishing what they thought it would. They'll blame the officials, of course, but maybe it will be enough that either they'll drop it, or it will just die out.

Or perhaps all the kids and parents will get used to having the officials around following the game and learn that they aren't to say anything negative during this time. Maybe the players and coaches will even start to come over and shake hands with the officials. And just maybe this exercise will end up having a positive effect on sportsmanship during HS athletic contests in the state.

For the record, my opinion is that if the MIAA wants this experiment to work, and I have to believe that the goal is to have an environment of greater sportsmanship for the games, then they must correct two serious errors made by the drafters of the policy. Namely, the officials must have penalty jurisdiction during the entire time that they are on the court, including the PGHS, and the officials must be participants and not just observers in the PGHS. Otherwise, the structure still makes them outsiders while everyone else is saying nice things to each other and shaking hands, and the kids, coaches, and parents will continue to see them as such. As long as that is the case, then the entire mission is certain to fail.

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560931)
That makes no sense. If you don't have any jurisdiction to deal with misbehavior, then why do they want you there?

I know that it is an MIAA thing, but the NFHS books directly contradict this policy.

Officials do have authority after the score is approved, but only under MIAA rules. Any punishment would not affect the final score.

MIAA Sportsmanship Rule 49.8 states- “Fighting and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties will be within the authority of the official at all times at the contest site. The official’s authority extends to pre and post game oversight.” Implementation of this rule could have future consequences on the offender, but does not affect the final score.

From the MIAA rationale:
The MIAA has a mission “to promote a culture of fairness, respect, responsibility, and civility in sports and to foster initiatives which encourage positive attitudes and behaviors in athletes, coaches, officials, parents, and spectators of all ages in Massachusetts.”

This strategy is an opportunity to utilize the partnership of coach and official as teachers for the expected and programmed outcome of respect for opponent. It adds to providing a positive environment, which has a modeling impact on fans.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560938)
To participate in the warm glow of good sportsmanship. We are literally part of the celebration; no longer officiating, but joining with the rest of the participants to express our mutual respect and admiration for the work the others have done that night. Hold on, I'm tearing up. . .

See my post immediately above this one for my thoughts on that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560938)
Sadly, this policy comes directly from Mary Struckoff who issued this ruling at the request of the MIAA.

:confused: Huh? Are you saying that Mary drafted the MIAA policy or that she had the NFHS issue something regarding the jurisdiction of NFHS officials over postgame handshakes?

I'm confused here.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 560941)
Officials do have authority after the score is approved, but only under MIAA rules. Any punishment would not affect the final score.

MIAA Sportsmanship Rule 49.8 states- “Fighting and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties will be within the authority of the official at all times at the contest site. The official’s authority extends to pre and post game oversight.” Implementation of this rule could have future consequences on the offender, but does not affect the final score.

From the MIAA rationale:
The MIAA has a mission “to promote a culture of fairness, respect, responsibility, and civility in sports and to foster initiatives which encourage positive attitudes and behaviors in athletes, coaches, officials, parents, and spectators of all ages in Massachusetts.”

This strategy is an opportunity to utilize the partnership of coach and official as teachers for the expected and programmed outcome of respect for opponent. It adds to providing a positive environment, which has a modeling impact on fans.

So the MIAA has, in fact, altered the NFHS rule on this, to which I stated it was contradictory. The official can write some report and the offenders can be sanctioned at a future time, but nothing can be done which will impact that particular game. That is taking away much of the bite from power granted to the officials under NFHS rules. I don't like it.

In other words, they have partially defanged the watch dog, but expect it to still be just as effective. :(

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560939)
Or perhaps all the kids and parents will get used to having the officials around following the game and learn that they aren't to say anything negative during this time. Maybe the players and coaches will even start to come over and shake hands with the officials. And just maybe this exercise will end up having a positive effect on sportsmanship during HS athletic contests in the state.

This is starting to occur. I have had players in every game this year come up to me after the handshake to shake my hand and says "thanks." This has been from both the winners and losers.

Scrapper's original post on this is right on the mark, though. If the AD and school administrators do not do their job, they have no right to expect us to do it alone. So far this year, I have noticed a significant change in attitude among the ADs. Last year, when this was a "recommended" procedure, it was the exception to be greeted by a site manager, who knew the protocol. So far this year, the AD (or someone else) has done their job...before, during and after the games I have worked.

ma_ref Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560844)
Here's my report to the MIAA, regarding the game in the original post of this thread:
...
"the JV officials will also confirm that they did not have this meeting and discussion"
...

I'm assuming then, that the JV officials did not stick around for the PGHS...did the AD give them a hard time as well? Did he make them fill out the paperwork?

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560945)
So the MIAA has, in fact, altered the NFHS rule on this, to which I stated it was contradictory. The official can write some report and the offenders can be sanctioned at a future time, but nothing can be done which will impact that particular game. That is taking away much of the bite from power granted to the officials under NFHS rules. I don't like it.

In other words, they have partially defanged the watch dog, but expect it to still be just as effective. :(

Massachusetts has its own rules for several things that fall outside of the NFHS. It uses the shot clock. Until last year, games were played in halves, not quarters. It has given teams waivers from the "home team must wear white" rule.

It received a specific ruling from the NFHS and added a rule as follows:
NF Basketball Rule 2, Section 5, Article 7 has been adopted, “When the referee either signs the scorebook following the game, or when a non-verbal confirmation is exchanged between the referee and the official scorer, the score is then final and considered approved.”
The sanction for fighting (as well as spitting at someone or punching or kicking an opponent) is a two-game suspension. As I understand the MIAA rule, this does not require any "hearing" after the fact. As an official, if I observe this conduct while I have jurisdiction under MIAA rules (which includes post-game activity), I can penalize it.

Further, a student or coach who physically assaults an official is banned from all sports for one year.

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560939)
Or perhaps all the kids and parents will get used to having the officials around following the game and learn that they aren't to say anything negative during this time. Maybe the players and coaches will even start to come over and shake hands with the officials. And just maybe this exercise will end up having a positive effect on sportsmanship during HS athletic contests in the state.

And maybe Santa will fill my daughter's stocking tomorrow night. :rolleyes:

Honestly, if they want to do foster this, they should start without the officials being there. The officials are the lightning rod after any emotional contest. Get the culture changed without the targets being there. Then, when you feel that the culture really has changed, include the officials.

And frankly, I'd have absolutely NO problem whatsoever with this whole thing if they'd just do it BEFORE the game, instead of after when everyone's emotions are running high. Nobody actually means it after the game, anyway. They're doing it because they have to. But before the game, they really are wishing each other well.

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ma_ref (Post 560948)
I'm assuming then, that the JV officials did not stick around for the PGHS...did the AD give them a hard time as well? Did he make them fill out the paperwork?

They did not, and he did not.

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 560942)
she had the NFHS issue something regarding the jurisdiction of NFHS officials over postgame handshakes?

Ms. Struckoff issued the official ruling that states the game is over when the officials verify the score, which is done by visually checking with the scorer or signing the book. Once that visual check is done, no changes to the score may be made.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 560958)
Massachusetts has its own rules for several things that fall outside of the NFHS. It uses the shot clock. Until last year, games were played in halves, not quarters. It has given teams waivers from the "home team must wear white" rule.

It received a specific ruling from the NFHS and added a rule as follows:
NF Basketball Rule 2, Section 5, Article 7 has been adopted, “When the referee either signs the scorebook following the game, or when a non-verbal confirmation is exchanged between the referee and the official scorer, the score is then final and considered approved.”
The sanction for fighting (as well as spitting at someone or punching or kicking an opponent) is a two-game suspension. As I understand the MIAA rule, this does not require any "hearing" after the fact. As an official, if I observe this conduct while I have jurisdiction under MIAA rules (which includes post-game activity), I can penalize it.

Further, a student or coach who physically assaults an official is banned from all sports for one year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560968)
Ms. Struckoff issued the official ruling that states the game is over when the officials verify the score, which is done by visually checking with the scorer or signing the book. Once that visual check is done, no changes to the score may be made.

So she issued a ruling ONLY for the state of MA? :confused: I find that odd because MA does not have a seat on the NFHS committee or rules submission rights due to its employment of the shot clock. What is the state office trying to gain by having someone from the NFHS provide them with a rule? I can't understand why they didn't just write and publish it on their own.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 560965)
And maybe Santa will fill my daughter's stocking tomorrow night. :rolleyes:

Honestly, if they want to do foster this, they should start without the officials being there. The officials are the lightning rod after any emotional contest. Get the culture changed without the targets being there. Then, when you feel that the culture really has changed, include the officials.

And frankly, I'd have absolutely NO problem whatsoever with this whole thing if they'd just do it BEFORE the game, instead of after when everyone's emotions are running high. Nobody actually means it after the game, anyway. They're doing it because they have to. But before the game, they really are wishing each other well.

Well, it seems that according to another official in your state there really is a Santa Claus.
I'm not sure that this process can be begun without the officials and have the culture change. One of the central features of what is trying to be changed is the attitude displayed towards the game officials. It's hard to alter that if they are there and the kids don't get to have this personal contact with them. They simply have to come to view the officials as participants in the game and not their adversaries. This is a human activity done for recreation. It is played by people, run by people, taught by people, officiated by people, and scoring and stats are done by people. During games each and every one of those people will make mistakes. The human factor is part of the game. This message must get across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 560946)
This is starting to occur. I have had players in every game this year come up to me after the handshake to shake my hand and says "thanks." This has been from both the winners and losers.

Scrapper's original post on this is right on the mark, though. If the AD and school administrators do not do their job, they have no right to expect us to do it alone. So far this year, I have noticed a significant change in attitude among the ADs. Last year, when this was a "recommended" procedure, it was the exception to be greeted by a site manager, who knew the protocol. So far this year, the AD (or someone else) has done their job...before, during and after the games I have worked.

It has occurred to me that this AD might have been so upset for either of two reasons (most people on here have assumed the first):
1. He doesn't want to get into trouble for not conducting the PGHS and he was venting his frustration over the impending answering that he will soon be doing, and was mad and pointing the finger at the officials in order to cover his own @ss.

2. Perhaps he really wants to conduct the PGHS and do it right. He may have been offended that it didn't take place on his court under his watch.
(Let's also consider the 2nd.)

Adam Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 560958)
The sanction for fighting (as well as spitting at someone or punching or kicking an opponent) is a two-game suspension. As I understand the MIAA rule, this does not require any "hearing" after the fact. As an official, if I observe this conduct while I have jurisdiction under MIAA rules (which includes post-game activity), I can penalize it.

Further, a student or coach who physically assaults an official is banned from all sports for one year.

Uhm, so what's the penalty for verbally assaulting a referee during this warm and fuzzy Hallmark moment?

You know, B26 comes up to the official, and while shaking his hand, says, "You're the worst F-ing ref I've seen in my life and your B!%@# mother should be ashamed of you."

Ch1town Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561053)
Uhm, so what's the penalty for verbally assaulting a referee during this warm and fuzzy Hallmark moment?

You know, B26 comes up to the official, and while shaking his hand, says, "You're the worst F-ing ref I've seen in my life and your B!%@# mother should be ashamed of you."

Those just may be valid statements especially if the team member made it through all 4 quarters without a T being assessed :D

Adam Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town (Post 561057)
Those just may be valid statements especially if the team member made it through all 4 quarters without a T being assessed :D

Maybe, but why did you have to bring my Mom into this?

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561053)
Uhm, so what's the penalty for verbally assaulting a referee during this warm and fuzzy Hallmark moment?

You know, B26 comes up to the official, and while shaking his hand, says, "You're the worst F-ing ref I've seen in my life and your B!%@# mother should be ashamed of you."

That is covered too. I did not want to include all the sanctions and remedies, but the MIAA Rule Book has almost three pages on "sportsmanship."

This is Rule 49.9:
Some of the reasons that an official may disqualify a student or coach from a contest that would lead to a game disqualification are:
1. Fighting
2. Flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct which is defined but not limited to violent action toward a player, official, or spectator, the use of foul or abusive language, taunting, trash talk, and the like.
Having worked with this "handshake" rule for two seasons, I don't have the concerns that others here raise. In those rare games where I do not feel safe, I do not have to stay for the handshake. If there is no "warning" of a problem and one develops, I have the site manager at my side to deal with fans and enough authority under under MIAA rules to deal with problems from players or coaches.

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 561074)
I have the site manager at my side to deal with fans and enough authority under under MIAA rules to deal with problems from players or coaches.

How do the MIAA rules help you deal with a water bottle that cracks you in the back of the head? A bottle was thrown at an official in the WMass finals last season; fortunately it missed. But frankly, no sportsmanship initiative is worth that risk to me.

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 561078)
How do the MIAA rules help you deal with a water bottle that cracks you in the back of the head? A bottle was thrown at an official in the WMass finals last season; fortunately it missed. But frankly, no sportsmanship initiative is worth that risk to me.

The MIAA has decided it wants this rule in place. I have two choices -- accept it or decline to work high school games sanctioned by the MIAA. The MIAA did a much better job this year of getting the schools to do their job. A school I was at last week had a site manager follow the protocol to the letter; last year at the same school, I could not even find a custodian with a key to the locker room.

I don't live in a risk-free world and I accept those risks in everything I do. I had a game last night that should have been 20 minutes away. But because of snow, ice, rush hour and Christmas shopping traffic, it took me almost 75 minutes to get there. Do I decline the game because there is ice on the roads? Or I might get hit by a holiday shopper gabbing on the cell phone? I respect your concern for our safety. But I also respect that when I work a high school game under MIAA rules, they get to set the rules. I can handle that...or I would not take the game.

BillyMac Tue Dec 23, 2008 06:49pm

Soccer? Baseball? Football? Wrestling? Volleyball? Gymnastics? Etc. ???
 
Not counting the Bay State, are there any other interscholastic, or intercollegiate, sports where the officials customarily, or by rule, stick around after the game, or match, or meet, has been decided, for some type of post game handshake? Does the Massachusetts handshake edict only apply to basketball, or to all interscholastic sports in that state?

Adam Tue Dec 23, 2008 06:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 561238)
Not counting the Bay State, are there any other interscholastic, or intercollegiate, sports where the officials customarily, or by rule, stick around after the game, or match, or meet, has been decided, for some type of post game handshake? Does the Massachusetts handshake edict only apply to basketball, or to all interscholastic sports in the state?

I think it's routinely done in some other sports, and MA decided to impliment this grand experiment in warm fuzzies with all sports.

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561239)
MA decided to implement this grand experiment in warm fuzzies with all sports.

All team sports, specifically: volleyball, soccer, football, field hockey, basketball, ice hockey, baseball, gymnastics, softball and lacrosse.

BillyMac Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:26pm

I Like Being The Straight Man ...
 
Mark Padgett: Do you hang around to observe handshakes after the croquet match after you have approved the final score?

(What a straight line. This is going to be good)

Rich Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 561088)
The MIAA has decided it wants this rule in place. I have two choices -- accept it or decline to work high school games sanctioned by the MIAA. The MIAA did a much better job this year of getting the schools to do their job. A school I was at last week had a site manager follow the protocol to the letter; last year at the same school, I could not even find a custodian with a key to the locker room.

I don't live in a risk-free world and I accept those risks in everything I do. I had a game last night that should have been 20 minutes away. But because of snow, ice, rush hour and Christmas shopping traffic, it took me almost 75 minutes to get there. Do I decline the game because there is ice on the roads? Or I might get hit by a holiday shopper gabbing on the cell phone? I respect your concern for our safety. But I also respect that when I work a high school game under MIAA rules, they get to set the rules. I can handle that...or I would not take the game.

Until officials are employees of the state, I think you have more recourse than "none."

BayStateRef Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 561276)
Until officials are employees of the state, I think you have more recourse than "none."

Individual schools do not have to follow MIAA rules either -- unless they want to participate in the state tournament, which is run by the MIAA. So most public and parochial schools follow the rules. The private schools have their own association/leagues with their own rules and they do not enter the MIAA tournament.

I can decide how to officiate my games, but my assignors might not agree with my decision. I say "might" because two of my assignors have left it up to me (and my partners). Other assignors have explicitly told their officials that they MUST take part in the handshake or they will have their games withdrawn. So being "independent" doesn't mean I can do what I want -- unless I am willing to accept the consequences of not getting assignments for high school varsity games.

Rich Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 561278)
Individual schools do not have to follow MIAA rules either -- unless they want to participate in the state tournament, which is run by the MIAA. So most public and parochial schools follow the rules. The private schools have their own association/leagues with their own rules and they do not enter the MIAA tournament.

I can decide how to officiate my games, but my assignors might not agree with my decision. I say "might" because two of my assignors have left it up to me (and my partners). Other assignors have explicitly told their officials that they MUST take part in the handshake or they will have their games withdrawn. So being "independent" doesn't mean I can do what I want -- unless I am willing to accept the consequences of not getting assignments for high school varsity games.

If the officials would come together on this stupidity, like they should, there would be no officials to assign.

Adam Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 561294)
If the officials would come together on this stupidity, like they should, there would be no officials to assign.

Too many don't care.

Rich Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561297)
Too many don't care.

And there are some that see this as an opportunity to work games they otherwise wouldn't (see last year's tournament).

I've never stayed for a PGHS, so I have no idea if this kind of thing happens in my neck of the woods.

rpirtle Wed Dec 24, 2008 01:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 561278)
....I can decide how to officiate my games, but my assignors might not agree with my decision. I say "might" because two of my assignors have left it up to me (and my partners). Other assignors have explicitly told their officials that they MUST take part in the handshake or they will have their games withdrawn. So being "independent" doesn't mean I can do what I want -- unless I am willing to accept the consequences of not getting assignments for high school varsity games.

How many "Assignors" does a typical basketball official have in MA...??? I know that states vary on how school districts are setup, how officials are certified, how games are assigned, etc.

I'm in TX where school districts are usually set up by individual towns or cities (as opposed to "Unified School Districts"...as in CA by counties). The State's educational governing body for inter-school competitions (both acedemic and athletic) is UIL. UIL states in their constitution that schools should...yes should...use only TASO officials for all varsity high school competitions.

For this reason, we have to be a member of one of the 14 TASO Chapters to work varsity games. Each Chapter has an Assignment Secretary that is a paid position within that Chapter. So most officials here have only one assignor for all their games (yes...I finally got to my point... :eek: ). I also worked for about 5 years in Sacramento (ending in 1999) where it worked much the same way. What's it like in MA...???

Nevadaref Wed Dec 24, 2008 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 561294)
If the officials would come together on this stupidity, like they should, there would be no officials to assign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561297)
Too many don't care.

I care, but I happen to be on the other side in this debate. I like the efforts of the MIAA. I think that there are some details that need adjusting, but overall I support the idea.

Adam Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 561347)
I care, but I happen to be on the other side in this debate. I like the efforts of the MIAA. I think that there are some details that need adjusting, but overall I support the idea.

Fortunately, you're on the other side of the country as well. :)

I get their purpose, and it's a nice thought. There's just no reason to have the officials standing there postgame when everyone's emotions are heated. As scrappy said, do it before the game if you want the refs there.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 561408)
I get their purpose, and it's a nice thought. There's just no reason to have the officials standing there postgame when everyone's emotions are heated. As scrappy said, do it before the game if you want the refs there.

That would completely defeat the purpose. What we are after here is people learning to control their emotions and that it is just a game played for fun and recreation. When it's over, it's over and you go away without negative thoughts and feelings.

How would a pregame handshake when there are no emotions and thoughts that decisions have gone against someone be in anyway similar?
How would it teach people to cope with what happened in the game?
It wouldn't.

Adam Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:56pm

The problem really isn't the players and coaches, as has been alluded to, there is ample authority to deal with them even if the score is set. The problem is the fans.

1. You're not going to "teach" them anything in this setting.
2. You're setting up stationary targets at mid-court with their back to half the crowd.
3. What happens when an AD is either intimidated or incompetent, as Scrappy (I think) dealt with last season?

I'm not sure what details could be changed to make this acceptable.

Ref Ump Welsch Wed Dec 24, 2008 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 561238)
Not counting the Bay State, are there any other interscholastic, or intercollegiate, sports where the officials customarily, or by rule, stick around after the game, or match, or meet, has been decided, for some type of post game handshake? Does the Massachusetts handshake edict only apply to basketball, or to all interscholastic sports in that state?

I know that in the NJCAA, soccer officials must stick around for the handshake after the game. This is how one team was eliminated from being allowed to play in the postseason even though they won their conference regular season title, because one of the players started a post-game fracas and apparently not on just one occasion.

Rich Wed Dec 24, 2008 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 561419)
That would completely defeat the purpose. What we are after here is people learning to control their emotions and that it is just a game played for fun and recreation. When it's over, it's over and you go away without negative thoughts and feelings.

How would a pregame handshake when there are no emotions and thoughts that decisions have gone against someone be in anyway similar?
How would it teach people to cope with what happened in the game?
It wouldn't.

If the officials stay, they should keep jurisdiction.

Why does it require officials to do a PGHS? Aren't the coaches and administrators supervising the kids and being the adults?

When the game ends, the officials' role is over.

And all this is theoretical, anyway. No way this ever goes national. Too many states, I bet, would find the emphasis on this to be moronic.

(Wasn't MA the state that tried requiring mouthguards and also made a boy wear a skirt to play field hockey?)

Nevadaref Wed Dec 24, 2008 02:08pm

Rich,
Go back and look at post #34 in this thread for my thoughts on what you have just written.

Rich Wed Dec 24, 2008 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 561457)
Rich,
Go back and look at post #34 in this thread for my thoughts on what you have just written.

I am happier with your implementation of this, to be honest. I just don't think a lot of fans can be changed in the way this would require. I sit in the stands during JV games and will go to a playoff game I am not assigned and the level of ignorance and stupidity shown by the fans is just astounding. In an empty gym, I would not blink an eye at being part of the handshake line.

I will always shake a player's or coach's hand if they present it to me.

I just don't think it's all as simple as the MIAA does. I wonder how many of those policymakers have ever put on a whistle and officiated.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 24, 2008 02:17pm

Perhaps we should be looking ahead to the next generation of fans sitting in the stands. If these people are the kids playing today and they learn to view and interact with the game officials differently, then perhaps down the road things will be better when they are the ones who are sitting in the stands.

I agree that it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to change the beliefs of the older folks who are the current bleacher bums.

It has been said that if you wish to better the world, then teach a child something good.

BayStateRef Wed Dec 24, 2008 09:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpirtle (Post 561313)
How many "Assignors" does a typical basketball official have in MA...??? I know that states vary on how school districts are setup, how officials are certified, how games are assigned, etc.

I have three assignors for my varsity schedule...and I would say that is not unusual. Assignors are hired by the leagues -- and some handle only boys or girls. So a single league of nine, 10 or 12 schools can have two assignors. Some assignors handle only varsity and delegate sub-varsity games to another assignor. Officials are certified to work high school games....but not by the state. It leaves it up to independent officials' associations. Most officials in Massachusetts are members of IAABO, which has 13 boards in the state. There are also a handful of much smaller associations.

There have been a number of retirements and resignations by assignors in the last few years, which has changed the landscape. When I started about 10 years ago, I worked exclusively for one assignor, who had five or six leagues -- boys and girls and who had been around forever. When he retired his leagues were given to at least four assignors.

Stat-Man Sat Dec 27, 2008 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 561275)
Mark Padgett: Do you hang around to observe handshakes after the croquet match after you have approved the final score?

(What a straight line. This is going to be good)

I'm happy if my friends and associates even remember to shake hands after our croquet games :D

<img src="http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/twocents.gif" title="image: two cents">: I'm all for promoting good sportsmanship, but It's my own opinion that if you make a PGHS mandatory, it loses some of its significance and meaning and is a statement that whoever made the rule doesn't trust the participants to do it on their own.

26 Year Gap Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 562030)
I'm happy if my friends and associates even remember to shake hands after our croquet games :D

<img src="http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/twocents.gif" title="image: two cents">: I'm all for promoting good sportsmanship, but It's my own opinion that if you make a PGHS mandatory, it loses some of its significance and meaning and is a statement that whoever made the rule doesn't trust the participants to do it on their own.

Why don't they have a post-session handshake at the statehouse every day that is observed by the sgt at arms?


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