Wow, Did I just see that!
 

To start, I was doing the Jv boys game. I am in my 5th year, P is his 4th. My P and I go to watch V crew. 3 older gentlemen, very experienced. Midway through the 2Q, team B goes up for rebound gets fouled by team A. The C calls a foul goes to report and says A3 "over the back" and does a diving motion/bunny hop. Table asks what was the call?...he precedes to say and do the motion 2 more times. My P and I look at each other like, "what did he say and just do!" To say the least... My P and I were a little shocked that a V ref would use that term and motion knowing there is no such call! I went in at halftime to grab my stuff and didnt have the STONES to ask him about his call. Would any of you say anything or just let it go.....:eek:

I would let it go. Unfortunately I've seen this before. As a second year, I don't feel like I have the authority to bring it up to a veteran.

While there is no such "call" it doesn't mean that "a" foul call was wrong...just the formal description. There are a log of old dogs out there that, despite things like this, can still call the game. I don't advocate using such terminology but I certainly wouldn't categorize the guy as an incapable ref for it eithers....just let it be.

CAmeron,

With all due respect I strongly disagree that the mechanic is harmless. It really does a diservice to those of us trying to do things right. It also totally discredits us when we try to explain that there is no such foul as over the back.

When I was "the rookie" I would ask my partner to clarify a call or rule, but would never pursue it/push it if I thought they were wrong.

However, I do concur that it makes it tougher for those of us following - "hey, he called over the back, why can't you?"

JV game I was clock op earlier this week and the ref called a foul and then used the infamous "hit to the head signal." Book person, who knows I'm a ref asked me, "What's that?" :o

Where did I say it was harmless? The point was that some people have been around so long that you're probably not going to change them no matter what you do so. So, your effort would be better spent elsewhere.

I don't see anywhere that Camron said it was harmless, and I don't want to speak for him, but I infer his meaning as a "you have to pick your battles" opinion. Yes, it's a wrong mechanic, yes it gives the wrong impression.

But, is it worth the potential consequences to bring it up to a guy who, 99% likely, isn't going to change that habit in the future? No...especially considering the nature some places that getting on the wrong side of the wrong veteran will doom you to C team games...

Camron did not say it was harmless. He was putting it into a bigger perspective or context. And I agree that it really is a bad mechanic, but we all know of many older/experienced officials that have been doing things for years and do not change. Ranting and raving about it is not going to change them or anything.

I have also stopped trying to worry about what people say that were before or after me. I just do my job and let what I say speak for itself. Another thing I think officials worry too much about.

Peace

Nope. I wouldn't ask. Some people use unofficial mechanics. Doesn't for me, but he's calling the game.

Was the signal what I like to call the "creeping death" foul?

Eh, I don't really care what others signal. I signal properly, but I can't control others.

2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual page 78:
3.5.1 D
Officials should be professional in the use of the signals and should not attempt to draw attention to themselves by use of unapproved, emphatic or theatrical signals.

My first thought on this directive is that any official that needs it will think
"They're not talking about me."

Or Peter Boyle ???
 

Boris Karloff ???

I realize that it's not an approved signal, but how could somebody not know what it means? :confused: Somebody got hit in the head. It's one of the most common-sense signals out there because it shows what the person actually did.

It's an NCAAW mechanic. Keep it at that level.

In my short career as an official, I have never had the table ask about the nature of the foul. They just care about the player color, number and communicate bonus situations.

You can often learn as much by watching veterans "do it wrong" as you can by watching them "do it right."

Nevada - I understand that it's not approved at the HS level, but doesn't it communicate to all exactly where the player was hit?

What are your thoughts about using it as a prelim at the spot, then using the approved signal while reporting?

Naked Gun
 

more
Leslie Neilson:D

I would use the approved signal at both spots.

If the coach questions the foul , I would (or might) use the "hit to the head" signal as part of my explanation.

See post #11.

Gotcha, I'll combine #11 & #20 when/if neccessary.

While I agree that it's best to use the given mechanics, as far as the table is concerned, it's a foul and they just need to put it in the book. I have yet to see a book with an area to specify what type of foul it was.

So, are you saying when one player trips another player it's also ok to use the non-existent "trip signal" instead of the block because "it shows what the person actually did." I'm not that seasoned an official and just not comfortable using mechanics that aren't in the book. JMO

My .02 and I disagree
 

First, I agree that FED signals need to be used, and done in a clear and distinct manner.

However, the FED Rules Committee is wrong when it says: "Officials should be professional in the use of the signals and should not attempt to draw attention to themselves by use of unapproved, emphatic or theatrical signals."

The use of such pejorative language reveals something that I really don't like. FED wants everyone to be an ASA softball umpire, to call everything exactly alike, and do everything exactly alike. And there are times in a basketball game where using an added signal in addition to the FED signal is not being a hot dog, or unprofessional.

For example, the other day I was lead in a 2 man game. A1 is driving down the lane, and B1 sticks his forearm out, and holds him from driving down the lane. The way the players were going nobody on either bench could see the call, or why I called it.

So I come to the reporting area, use one hand for the player number and reported "24 white",then using the exact FED signal "holding." Then I pointed in the direction of play after the foul. Already the defensive coach is up looking at me because he didn't see his player's forearm across the midsection of A1. So I then put my forearm out, motioned it away from my body like a FB ref calling illegal motion, and said "24 held 13 with his forearm on the drive."

B1's coach sat down, didn't say a word. Why? Because I used an "unapproved" signal to communicate what the foul clearly was to the coach. I sold the call using a signal not in the book. He may not like my call, but he knew what it was, and didn't make a scene about it.

And yes, I am an older person, and I have called basketball for a long time. But communication is a key to officiating well, and IMO if you have to use an unorthodox signal once in a while, great.

Being a by the book official on mechanics is what we should strive for, and I practice my mechanics regularly to make sure I give good, crisp signals. But to automatically say that any time an unorthodox signal is used is bad, that is just incorrect.

And to label an official using a signal not in the book as as a show off or trying to bring attention to themselves is to attack their integrity, and is very questionable. This is the mindset that leads to state associations trying to legislate no booing at HS sporting events, or mandating that officials police the post-game handshake after a game.

So, what you did was report the foul using prescribed mechanics, and then answered a coach's question with bonus clarity indication.

I would do the same. This is good officiating.

Also, at the spot of the foul, I'm using prescribed mechanics, but may answer question from player with a gesture. Had a kid make a clean block up top, but contact shooter with his chest. Called a push at the spot, and answered kids question with a tap to the chest (mine) as I go to report.

Couple of questions (for the board):

1. Clean block up top with body contact, should that be reported as a "push" or "block" accompanied by the verbal "BODY" to sell the call?

2. Should we give the kid the finger (STOP it) the wait-a-minute finger, go report then come back to explain?

Now that I think about it, a lot of my problems started after I used the "hit to the head" signal about 20 times in one game. :(

I would question why you are calling a foul on the first one. There is always going to be some contact on a blocked shot. If it was clean first, let the other contact go. If the body contact took place first, then you can have a legitimate foul.

Just my take.

Peace

I concur JRut, let me re-word that so I don't sound like a complete moron :D

1. Clean block up top with simultaneous body contact that is say, 60/40 or 55/45, should that be reported as a "push" or "block" accompanied by the verbal "BODY" to sell the call?

Now, any answers to the 2 previous questions would be greatly appreciated. I just want to get it right...

My take is: if the defender had LGP the body contact is ignored. If they did not have LGP or were moving forward toward an airborne shooter, I would call a foul.

[QUOTE=Ch1town;559740]I concur JRut, let me re-word that so I don't sound like a complete moron :D

I would still make the case that the body contact would have to come first to have a foul. Then again that is my experience and how it is expected to be called. All contact is not a foul and you are not going to have blocks without some expected contact. I would not call a PC foul on a shooter if they bounced off a defender and the defender maintained their basic position.

I will admit I did not understand the second question. What do you mean by "Give them the finger and come back and explain?" I do not think I am going to explain much directly to kids in the first place. Or at the very least I am not going out of my way to explain something. If they ask me in a quite and respectful way, then I might go for that.

Peace

Come on JRut, I completely understand! Why must it be sooooooo difficult to get this answer? You act as if you haven't read the post by referee99...
I saw a couple things in HIS post that raised questions.

1. Defender FOULS the shooter (with the body) prior to the block... Do YOU report the foul as a block or push is all that I am trying learn from you or any other knowledgable official.

referee99 second statement that caught my eye was how he explained to the player ON HIS WAY TO THE TABLE by "tapping his (own) chest" as if to say clean block but you got him with the body".

2. Should we report before communicating with players & coaches or is it acceptable to clarify in route to the table??

Gracias'

If you disagree with a foul being called, that is fine. I just do not feel you should call a foul "just because" there was some body contact when players go to the basket. And if you want to learn, then realize that there are officials that will not call this a foul and feel it should not be called a foul. It was the way I was taught a long time ago and the way I have been taught as I have gone to camps and trainings at higher levels. And in my experience I see both good and bad teams that play above or near the rim. If you are calling this a foul every time, then you will be shooting FTs from the moment the ball is tipped off. And I do not know how you could be that technical in any girl's game because every shot involves contact near the basket. The incidental contact rule did not just leave the rulebook either.

Secondly, I am still trying to understand why you feel the need to explain a call you made to a player or coach for that matter before you report to the table.

I tell the table (with a loud enough voice) what was done along with the correct signal. So if I have a push, I say which hand and how they pushed them (e.g. "Push with the right arm in the back") I have been doing this in some form for a season and a half and I cannot recall many coaches complaining what I called even if at first they were adamant about what they thought the call should be.

Peace

Although I'm not in that category, I'll try to answer this anyway. If the shooter was displaced by the defender, it's a push. If the shooter's forward (or sideways, or backwards) motion was stopped by the defender (who did not have LGP), it's a block.

me too
 

forearm trouble after one game with lots of emphatic illegal use of hands calls.

JH%&*$#C!!! Thank you Mark, that is all I wanted to know.
I know what a freakin foul is, I just had questions about another posters post.

In my sitch it was a push.
 

A1 drives towards low block...and pulls up. B2 comes from the FT line, contact knocks A1 towards the end line. B2 swats ball up top. Illegal contact occurred. Period. I had a push. Displacement, not impedance.

B2 gives me his best pleading, "I got all ball" face. I tell him "Body" and tap my chest.

If I had the call as trail and was now administering FTs I would certainly consider talking to a player about the illegal contact. As lead moving to new trail I would not return to the 'scene of the crime' to have any such discussion. Move on.

If you do not know what the signal is (and this is hard to understand), how are you so sure that you know what a foul is? The foul is whatever you want it to be based on the action. There is no "it must be this way or else" foul signal.

Peace

Mechanics and communication can definitely make a difference. I was scouting a game the other night and team A's best player A3 had 2 player control fouls and an "over the back" pushing foul on a rebound in the first half. Being a stickler for mechanics and a fan of officiating.com (!), i noticed immediately that the officials were very sloppy with their mechanics and communication with the table. Lo and behold, at the beginning of the second half, coach B is telling his guys to "attack A3, he's got 3 fouls". On a B3 drive to the basket, A3 hacks B3 on the arm and a foul is called. When coach A asks the home (B) scorekeeper if A3 has 4, scorekeeper responds "thats his first foul coach". B3 goes ape $h!t, there's a 10 minute delay in the game trying to sort everything out. The official is condescendingly admonishing the young lady keeping the book. I guess the young lady had enough of the attitude from the official and says "you never said foul, you just punched and said a number, how am i supposed to know those are fouls? Aren't you supposed to come close to the table and tell me it's a foul?" They finally sorted it out, but it was just a mess that probably could have been avoided.

Excellent, but you really could've said THAT 16 posts & a whole page ago :rolleyes:

Man it's almost been a year since we got down like this, but here we go again. And this time I just asked a question... oh wait a minute, that's what I did before too :confused:

This is what raised my concerns:

And you could have known that already, but then again this is another one of your huffy and puffy moments, which you tend to get when someone does not adhere to your demands.

You are supposed to be a veteran and you do not know what signal to give on a foul? Even if you do not know what signal to give, no one really cares. The only people that will likely care is the coach and even then they will complain no matter what you do if they do not respect you or if they feel you are not experienced. It is clear by reading many threads here recently, if you have been around a long time you can signal damn (even the wrong signals) near anything and they will still get games and still work where they want to. Is it that hard to know this already?

Peace

3rd year certified is NOT a vet in these parts... I'm in CO not SoCal :D

{This is where I get off} you sir may have the last word, life is too short.

Anybody with half-way decent reading/writing skills can see where the problem lies.

All you can do is comment about it which you have right here. My theory is I'm no better than anyone else, but just as good. I have no right to question another official that I'm watching. It's his game not mine. That's what assignors are for.

And that's the key...if you are comfortable with it. I use unapproved signals from time-to-time. I have a supervisor who tells us he likes to see some personality on the floor.

Once you have a established that you get plays right, know the rules, can communicate with coaches, and can handle situations on the court your mechanics get less scrutinized. Just ask Ed Hightower. :)

Having to sell a call is often a indication that we may have got it wrong. :o In this case I would have a push mechanic on the spot and at the table. I might explain (not sell) if the coach asked.

Wait, I feel another NFHS Mechanics Manual quote coming up. :rolleyes:

One of my favorite officials growing up when calling a PC from the lead would do a hop, skip, and a crow hop off the end-line probably moving 20 feet up the floor in the process. Some might call it selling his call rather than theatrics.

If a coach asked me why I wasn't calling "over the back" like this official in the OP, I might just reply, "I am calling the contact on the rebound when it occurs."

Well you are not a rookie and being "certified" I am sure does not have the same value as it does here and means little or nothing in the bigger picture.

And if life is too short, why are you getting worked up on a discussion board?

Learn to not ask "rookie" questions and you will get more concise answers.

To each his own. ;)

Peace

Please notice that I never said it was "ok" to use the "hit to the head" signal. I explicitly said that it's not an approved mechanic. My point was that the scorer had to be brain-dead not to understand it.

Not that I would care one bit if it became an approved mechanic.

A Little Birdy Told Me ...
 

No, just the assistant coach.

Now anyone with a high school education should know that. ;)

Peace

That being said, when a try is capped by the defender so it doesn't leave the throwers hand & he lands with the ball.
I often see officials at all levels use the clap-clap (vertically) prior to their held ball signal. Thoughts?