6 on court question, after
 

If there are 6 players for team A on the court while the ball is live and the refs don't notice, can they still call a Tech after the player has left the court. Say A1 is running off the side out of bounds or going through the stands? I suppose you could give a T for not being in the bench area.

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than five members participating simultaneously.

Penalized if discovered while being violated.

The gray area is the definition of participating. Some say there is no penalty if the discovery is made during a dead ball. Others, myself included, disagree.

I honestly hate 6 player techs. 95+% of these situations could be handled by officials paying attention and communicating, hold up the game until you are sure you have 5 players on each side. 1 comes on, 1 goes off. If many come on, count your players.

10-1-6 Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Penalized if discovered while being violated. If coach is telling player to get off and that individual is not participating in the play, let them run to the bench. We should have made sure they got off before giving the ball to the thrower anyways.

If the player runs into the stands are they trying to keep from participating and didn't want to go through the play and/or took the quickest exit off the floor?

I disagree with your disagreement. ;)

How can a team member be participating during a dead ball? This must be noticed by an official while the rule is being violated, not after, and for that to happen the ball must be live.

True.

However, you have already made one mistake by not doing what you wrote above. Don't compound the mistake by failing to properly penalize the infraction. That only makes the situation worse. Two wrongs don't make a right.

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

I asked two refs about this and they both gave different answers as well. One thing I'm learning is that the High school rulebook isn't exactly clear but I guess that's part of the fun(frustration) :)

kind of a compromise
edit- I suppose of course best to catch it right away, and if a player was on briefly and not caught by the refs and then hurried off the court without interfering then perhaps let the T go.
But I think I agree with the two wrongs and you can't ignore the violation and perhaps I would call a T in cases where I know for certain the player has been on the court for a length of time where it could affect the play. Even if the player is off the court. lots of grey area there but...oh well.

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

More food for thought. Team A has 6 players on the court. B1 commits a foul on A1. A1 takes exception and a fight breaks out. All 6 players from team A participate in the fight. Does the coach get an indirect T in this case?
I don't see how.

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

Not arguing with you Nevada, just reading into your conclusion and picking your brain, you would say then that just being on the court constitutes participation?

I will not allow my partner to put the ball in play with too many players on the floor, cannot say that he/she will pay as close attention though.

Being on the court DURING A LIVE BALL or being the thrower once the ball is placed at his disposal constitutes participation.

First one must understand the nuances of the rules.

1. It is illegal for a team to have more than five TEAM MEMBERS participating at the same time.

2. 4-34-1 defines the term "player." "A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission."

Now we can tackle your situation. The team doesn't have six players on the court. That is impossible by definition. It has five players and one other team member.

Therefore, the coach would indeed be charged with one indirect technical foul for the team member who participated in the fight and was not a player.

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. :eek: The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

There are several examples in both the rules and case books involving participation, but the most pertinent one for the situation we are discussing is the following:

10.5.3 SITUATION:

Oh Boy, I Get To Use My Study Guide ...
 

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

That is probably the latest that one could assess the technical, but the infraction must be recognized well before that. Your statement makes it sound as if the official can recognize and penalize the offense during the dead ball period. That's simply not the case.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: Since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

4-34-3: A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

So which of the 6 guys on the court is not a player?

The player the sub was supposed to replace.

But, what does it really matter? It's a team T.

4-34-5: (again) If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

No doubt it is too late in this case. I think this also applies during the game. If the officials do not actually observe 6 players, they can't take the word of anyone else. But, if I observe 6 players on the court, then the whistle blows, then the actual count takes place during a dead ball, I have no problem calling the technical at this time.

My comment was in the context of BEFORE the ball becomes live.

Also, there is a cap on the number of players. It cannot ever exceed five.

Case Play 10.1.6 is an example of sloppy writing. The author used imprecise terminology.

Advice Please ...
 

Nevadaref: Good point. When I made my study guide, I had some concerns about this wording. I tried to adhere to the language in the rulebook, the casebook, or annual interpretations, as much as possible. Can you, or anybody else, please suggest a better way of wording this, trying to stick to language already in the rulebook, or casebook, as much as possible?

Here's how it looks now:
Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

OK question - I had a game last Friday night - two pathetic teams GV. I'm at lead underneath table side when the ball goes OOBs at the table. Team B subs and I see C coming over taking care of it. I watch the players in the post mulling around then catch the ball being inbounded from the corner of my eye. Girls on team B start looking around at each other....pass the ball a couple times....then one of them runs off the court to the bench. Crap - 6 players!

Obviously, neither C nor T counted prior to putting the ball at the disposal of the inbounder. I didn't notice what was going on until the player was off the court on the bench.

Could/should I have a T in that situation, even though it was not noticed until after the occurance? I had a pep talk with the 'ol partners between quarters and told them to retrieve their heads from their nether regions, but I'm still miffed that such a silly thing happened in my game.

If you see one run off the court, and five still remain, that is discovered while being violated in my book. A technical is appropriate.

I have the same opinion. You saw the sixth person out there. Whack.