What do you have... Strange play

[Juulie Downs]

Had partner started the count? Would that make a difference?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Had partner started the count? Would that make a difference?

I guess it depends whether you want to say that since the count had not started, the ball was not at the players disposal, or the ball had been available for "2 seconds or so" which makes it at their disposal whether the count had started or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I guess it depends whether you want to say that since the count had not started, the ball was not at the players disposal, or the ball had been available for "2 seconds or so" which makes it at their disposal whether the count had started or not.

The referee judges when to start the count. At the point he starts the count, that is when the ball becomes live. It does make a difference in whether this foul gets called intentional personal or intentional technical.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The referee judges when to start the count. At the point he starts the count, that is when the ball becomes live. It does make a difference in whether this foul gets called intentional personal or intentional technical.

Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.

The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference. The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

One does not cause the other, but both should begin, by rule, at the exact same moment.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference.

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

That "available" isn't defined.
Interesting point, I guess I wasn't aware "available" was used. Since I didn't think it was there, I was thinking of the word in it's common everyday usage. IOW, the ball could be "available" to a player even though they were no where near it.

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

BTW, thanks for the correction on the term.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.

Thinking about how I"ve called this in the past, and the OP, I'd say the ball was probably "available" when the foul happened. However, whose judgment counts? If the new trail (on the endline) hasn't yet started the count, maybe he thinks it wasn't "available". So is it his opinion or mine?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which not coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

Fixed it for ya.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fixed it for ya.

Maybe, but you eliminated my sarcasm.