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fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:04pm

The Ultimate Free Throw situation
 
A3 is fouled during an attempt for goal. The ball is mistakenly placed by your partner at the disposal of A1 at the free throw line. A1 shoots and misses.

Players and officials forget there should be two shots, and A2 rebounds the miss and makes a basket. After the ball goes in the basket but before it is at B’s disposal, the score table sounds the horn and tells the officials that A1 was entitled to another basket. They have awarded two points to team A. During this, you also realize that A3, not A1 is entitled to the free throw, and it is determined after discussing with your partner that A1 was deliberately deceptive in taking the free throw.

What do you do next?

Adam Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 555499)
A3 is fouled during an attempt for goal. The ball is mistakenly placed by your partner at the disposal of A1 at the free throw line. A1 shoots and misses.

Players and officials forget there should be two shots, and A2 rebounds the miss and makes a basket. After the ball goes in the basket but before it is at B’s disposal, the score table sounds the horn and tells the officials that A1 was entitled to another basket. They have awarded two points to team A. During this, you also realize that A3, not A1 is entitled to the free throw, and it is determined after discussing with your partner that A1 was deliberately deceptive in taking the free throw.

What do you do next?

Change my pants.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:11pm

I'll give it a shot:

A2's basket counts.

Charge a technical foul to A1 for deliberately taking a FT to which he was not entitled.

Give A3 two FTs with the lane cleared.

B gets two technical foul FTs and the subsequent throw-in at the division line.

You and your partner(s) spend the rest of the game preparing for the a$$-chewing you should receive from your assignor. ;)

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555504)
I'll give it a shot:

A2's basket counts.

Charge a technical foul to A1 for deliberately taking a FT to which he was not entitled.

Give A3 two FTs with the lane cleared.

B gets two technical foul FTs and the subsequent throw-in at the division line.

You and your partner(s) spend the rest of the game preparing for the a$$-chewing you should receive from your assignor. ;)

Bzzzzzzzt :D (well, except for the last part)

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 555508)
Bzzzzzzzt :D (well, except for the last part)

Does that mean I'm right or wrong? :D

Bad Zebra Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 555499)

What do you do next?

Call Southwest Airlines.

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 555510)
Call Southwest Airlines.

You are now free to move about the playing court.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:15pm

Point of clarification. Did the officials forget it was 2 shots and state 1? Or, did the officials state 2 shots and then it was played as 1?

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555512)
Point of clarification. Did the officials forget it was 2 shots and state 1? Or, did the officials state 2 shots and then it was played as 1?

In this situation, it doesn't matter. In fact, I can't think of how it would matter in any situation if the officials have a collective brain fart and allow rebounding and scoring action to go on.

Doesn't matter what the officials indicated. Just matters what happened after the ball is released.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:26pm

I'm not sure it matters either, other than if they stated 2 and it was just the players playing the ball and scoring, it could be waved off...but if everyone forgot and the play was played, then it's a failure to award a merited free throw CE situation and the score will count...still trying to figure out what was wrong w/ my original post then.

jdmara Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:30pm

Go to commercial break and ask Billy Packer what the correct call is!

-Josh

Adam Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555504)
I'll give it a shot:

A2's basket counts.

Charge a technical foul to A1 for deliberately taking a FT to which he was not entitled.

Give A3 two FTs with the lane cleared.

B gets two technical foul FTs and the subsequent throw-in at the division line.

You and your partner(s) spend the rest of the game preparing for the a$$-chewing you should receive from your assignor. ;)

I've got this as correct. Only action during the free throw is canceled by rule, so A2's basket counts.

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 05:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555520)
I've got this as correct. Only action during the free throw is canceled by rule, so A2's basket counts.

I would think the same thing, except 2-10-4 states that the free throw shall be canceled. Note that it does NOT say that the successful free throw shall be canceled. It says the free throw period.

So, I have A3 attempting ONE free throw with the lane cleared.

The case book does not clarify this.

Thoughts?

Adam Thu Dec 04, 2008 06:17pm

Interesting; I think the purpose of the rule is to get the correct player to shoot both free throws at the correct hoop, I think the intent is clearly to only cancel the erroneously shot free throw.

I'll have A3 shoot 2 shots. Unless you want to apply this to a situation where everyone follows your partner to the wrong basket where the correct shooter takes a shot or two....

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 06:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555525)
Interesting; I think the purpose of the rule is to get the correct player to shoot both free throws at the correct hoop, I think the intent is clearly to only cancel the erroneously shot free throw.

I'll have A3 shoot 2 shots. Unless you want to apply this to a situation where everyone follows your partner to the wrong basket where the correct shooter takes a shot or two....

Your logic makes sense. I wish it were clarified in the case book.

fiasco Thu Dec 04, 2008 06:26pm

I guess here's another way to apply logic to the question:

If the rules intended for us to cancel the attempt and only award one FT to A3, then why even have that be a correctable error in the first place? The outcome, according to my initial interpretation, is the same either way, so why even have the rule?

Camron Rust Thu Dec 04, 2008 07:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555504)
I'll give it a shot:

A2's basket counts.

Charge a technical foul to A1 for deliberately taking a FT to which he was not entitled.

Give A3 two FTs with the lane cleared.

B gets two technical foul FTs and the subsequent throw-in at the division line.

This lines highlighted in red are only a maybe...most likely...but not always.

If team A is in the bonus and A3 was involved in a part of the play that could have also been a foul, A3 may legitimately believe that they were due the FTs. In that case, there would be no T.

AKOFL Thu Dec 04, 2008 08:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 555523)
I would think the same thing, except 2-10-4 states that the free throw shall be canceled. Note that it does NOT say that the successful free throw shall be canceled. It says the free throw period.

So, I have A3 attempting ONE free throw with the lane cleared.

The case book does not clarify this.

Thoughts?

I would think that it means to cancle the free throw by the wrong player not the free throw in general. A3 should still get his two shots he never recieved. he already lost them once, why twice. If i'm following your thought? sometime I only make sence to myself

jdw3018 Thu Dec 04, 2008 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 555538)
This lines highlighted in red are only a maybe...most likely...but not always.

If team A is in the bonus and A3 was involved in a part of the play that could have also been a foul, A3 may legitimately believe that they were due the FTs. In that case, there would be no T.

Agreed, Camron, though the OP made clear that the officials judged it as an intentional act to deceptively shoot the FTs in place of the appropriate player. That obviously makes it a T.

derwil Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:28pm

Correctable error
 
OK Five correctable errors are:

1 Failure to award FT
2 Allowing unmerited FT
3 Wrong player attempts FT
4 Attempting FT @ wrong basket
5 Erroneously counting/canceling a score

Therefore, I would have T on A1 for unsportsmanlike. A3 shoots 2 with the lane cleared for reason #3. A's basket taken off the scoreboard for reasons #1 (no second shot), 2 (A1 not the correct shooter), 3 (A1 not the correct shooter), and 5 (wrong FT shooter, should have has second shot etc.). B shoots 2 tech FTs and has ball at division line.

That sound right?

Camron Rust Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 555552)
Agreed, Camron, though the OP made clear that the officials judged it as an intentional act to deceptively shoot the FTs in place of the appropriate player. That obviously makes it a T.



Agreed.

Adam Fri Dec 05, 2008 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by derwil (Post 555557)
OK Five correctable errors are:

1 Failure to award FT
2 Allowing unmerited FT
3 Wrong player attempts FT
4 Attempting FT @ wrong basket
5 Erroneously counting/canceling a score

Therefore, I would have T on A1 for unsportsmanlike. A3 shoots 2 with the lane cleared for reason #3. A's basket taken off the scoreboard for reasons #1 (no second shot), 2 (A1 not the correct shooter), 3 (A1 not the correct shooter), and 5 (wrong FT shooter, should have has second shot etc.). B shoots 2 tech FTs and has ball at division line.

That sound right?

A2's basket counts based on 2-10-5,
Quote:

Points scored, consumed time, and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of the error, shall not be nullified.

AKOFL Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555692)
A2's basket counts based on 2-10-5,

That was my thought. Points scored stand but fouls unless intentional or flagrant are nulified. Another reason to take ur time when u make the first call. Get the fouler, foulee, shots, no shots, spot throw-in, comunicate to partners then report. all kinds of time once the wistle blows!

Adam Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 555724)
That was my thought. Points scored stand but fouls unless intentional or flagrant are nulified.

Close, the rule says the free throw and activity during it are nullified unless flagrant or intentional. A2's basket did not come during the free throw, it came after. That's why it didn't get nullified. Had A2 been fouled on the shot, this would have even been more fun.
You'd have A3 shoot his two.
A2 then gets his one free throw.
B gets to pick a shooter.
B gets the ball at the division line.

AKOFL Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555727)
Close, the rule says the free throw and activity during it are nullified unless flagrant or intentional. A2's basket did not come during the free throw, it came after. That's why it didn't get nullified. Had A2 been fouled on the shot, this would have even been more fun.
You'd have A3 shoot his two.
A2 then gets his one free throw.
B gets to pick a shooter.
B gets the ball at the division line.

since it wasn't durring the free throw, kinda sounds like what I said

Adam Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 555724)
That was my thought. Points scored stand but fouls unless intentional or flagrant are nulified. Another reason to take ur time when u make the first call. Get the fouler, foulee, shots, no shots, spot throw-in, comunicate to partners then report. all kinds of time once the wistle blows!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 555731)
since it wasn't durring the free throw, kinda sounds like what I said

Sorry, it wasn't what I read. :) My bad.

AKOFL Fri Dec 05, 2008 03:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555733)
Sorry, it wasn't what I read. :) My bad.

It's all good. sometimes I don't know what I wrote.lol

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 05, 2008 04:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 555737)
It's all good. sometimes I don't know what I wrote.lol

Flexible language. It's great for use with coaches and wives. ;)

derwil Fri Dec 05, 2008 09:41pm

Reading further in 2-10-5 ............
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 555692)
A2's basket counts based on 2-10-5,

Further in 2-10-05 it says: Errors because of free-throw attemps by the wrong player or at the wrong basket shall be corrected by applying 8-1 and 2.

Isn't the basket by A2 because of the wrong player attempting a free throw?

Adam Sat Dec 06, 2008 01:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by derwil (Post 555826)
Further in 2-10-05 it says: Errors because of free-throw attemps by the wrong player or at the wrong basket shall be corrected by applying 8-1 and 2.

Isn't the basket by A2 because of the wrong player attempting a free throw?

No, the basket by A2 was because of the failure to award a merited free throw. Regardless, not sure how 8-1 and 8-2 affect this, they simply lay out the rules for correctly administering a free throw.


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