Intentional or Technical
 

Situation from HS game:

Player A1 dribbles ball, closely guarded by B1 near sideline. A1 picks up dribble, looks to pass, but becomes frustrated by B1's tight defense. A1 holds ball in left hand and hits B1 in face with right elbow. There is no doubt the contact is flagrant.

Officials assess a technical foul on A1, put ball in play at halfcourt after free throws. My thought is that this should have been an intentional foul, because the ball was live.

Thoughts? Rule or case references please.

I am a little confused. You said the foul should be flagrant, but then say it should be an intentional foul? I do not think it can be both. You have to choose one or the other. It could be a technical if the technical was not for the action in question. It sounds like you are not really sure what the Technical was given for. Just my thoughts on your play.

Peace

Neither of you are right.

The correct call is a FLAGRANT PERSONAL FOUL.

A punch would have left no doubt. It would have been a flagrant. But elbows can be tricky. If they agreed on a T, it probably was. Did they deem it an intentional T or not? Or do you know?

How do you know? Did you see the action? It could have also been a plane PC Foul, a Flagrant Foul and Intentional Foul or a regular foul if something caused the ball to be dead. It sounds like the person was assuming what happen rather than knowing for sure.

Peace

I discussed this with the officials after the game. In their opinion, it was definitely not a normal PC foul, as A1 took her right hand off the ball to throw the elbow, and then made flagrant contact with B1.

They reasoned that since the foul was flagrant, it should have been technical.

I reasoned that since the ball was live, it should not have been a technical foul.

Ball was live........
 

No Technical, "just" a flagrant. Toss the player (10-6 under penalties), two shots with the ball inbounded at spot nearest the foul. Foul counts towards the bonus.

Nothing in the mechanics book for flagrant. Do you just signal as a normal foul and tell the scorer that it's flagrent?

I assume that since it was flagrant they tossed the girl. If not, they blew this play in every sense. Just out of curiosity, what level was this game?

These are the facts. They are undisputed.

Billy Mac Thought That You Could Have An Intentional Flagrant Personal Foul, Idiot ..
 

Been there. Done that. I think it was Nevadaref who finally straightened me out. Wait a minute. Maybe it was my twin brother Billy Mac (note the space) on the NFHS forum. Where are my keys?

Reading is fundamental
 

Why are you are such ...?
I simply took the time to read what the OP wrote.

BTW, I seriously doubt that the player was flying through the air like a plane. :p It is truly sad to see an adult display the writing skills of an elementary school kid. :( I can't imagine how difficult life must be for you.

...I am an ... because it was not very clear why the foul had to be a flagrant foul? Flagrant foul has a special distinction that may or may not apply on this play at all. Just because someone says it was a flagrant foul (then says it should be an intentional foul in the next line) does not make it so. It is up to the judgment of the calling officials to call either. And you obviously did not read the next line in the thread. It sounds to me like the person was confused as to what the foul should have been and a player with the ball can commit a simple Player-Control Foul. This is not an "automatic" situation. It sounds to me like you are jealous of something because everytime I say something you feel the need to name call.

I would rather know that I made a writing mistake on a discussion board, then act like a baby like you do every time someone does not agree with you. I might write like I am in elementary school, but you act like you are in elementary school. What is with all the posts about the NF as if they have to answer to what you think? That gets old really quick. ;)

Peace

That brings a little more light to the situation because you actually talked to the officials and did not just observe something from the peanut gallery.

And no, flagrant fouls and technical fouls are not one in the same. You could have a technical foul during a live ball, but that would be for conduct of the participants, not a foul because of contact. That is a common mistake officials make in this part of the rule. Flagrant Fouls are not common so people think an ejection always involves a Technical Foul.

Peace

How funny you post this...unless the original poster was talking directly about me, I had this exact situation this week. The only difference is A1 used the ball and hit the defender in the face. I went with a flagrant personal foul.

The only problem is I do not know if you could have a flagrant personal foul with only contact of the ball. You might have a Flagrant Technical because that is about conduct, not contact with a player.

Peace

I agree with ....

It's a technical foul because there was no physical contact between the two players.

The following is a similar situation:


10.3.6 SITUATION B:

For a flagrant personal foul and a flagrant technical do you just signal as a normal foul and tell the scorer that it's flagrant?

Yes -- there's no specific signal for a Flagrant foul. Some use the Baseball "ejection" mechanic.

Baseball Umpires Are What You Call "Experts" ...
 

I love the, "You're Outta Here", signal, but as bob jenkins so correctly pointed out, there's no specific signal for a flagrant foul on the NFHS signal chart. If you're going to use it, use it at your own risk. When in Basketball-land, do as Basketball-landers do.

I have only had to eject one player in my high school referee career. I think I used the crossed arm intentional foul sign and then pointed off the court like I was sending her to her room. It got the point across.

1) A1's contact with B1 is a personal foul (live ball contact foul).

2) The covering official has to make a decision (that is why we are paid the big bucks) as to whether A1's foul is a common foul (a player control foul in this play), an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul.

MTD, Sr.

FIBA - disqualifying foul (intentionally striking a player is an automatic DQ)