Who is writing this stuff?
 

Why can't the NFHS find someone at the office who can actually read the rules to write these interpretations?

Here is yet another example of a ruling which does not follow the text of the rule:

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)


Sorry, but the rule directly forbids a team from having both 0 and 00 on the squad member list. That in and of itself is illegal. The team has committed an infraction when the 10 minute mark has been reached and both of those numbers still appear on the roster, nothing further needs to happen.

From 3-4-3d: "A team member list shall not have both numbers 0 and 00."

But doesn't everything on this subject under rule 10 deal with having to change a number? If only one participates, why must one be changed?

My point exactly.

Peace

Neither number is illegal by itself, so rule 10-5-4 doesn't apply. It is the combination of the two that is prohibited.

Neither one has to change. The rules don't mandate that. The rule simply says that the team member list cannot contain both 0 and 00. That is the infraction here. It has nothing to do with who plays. That's the point.

This is just a poor interpretation by the NFHS.

So, does 3-4-3d have a penalty associated with it?

So what exactly is your problem with this interpretation? It is a given that having both numbers on the same list is not allowed, but the fact that the numbers are there is not in and of itself an infraction. Perhaps the whole point of this interp is not to call a technical in this situation.

Here is the question that should be asked: Why is it illegal to have both a player with the number "0" and a player with the number "00" suit up for the same game?

At one time until the recent past a team could have a player wearing the number "0" and a player wearing the number "00" and this was legal. But when computerized statistics programs came into being the programs could not distingish between a "0" and a "00." Don't you just love technology. :D

So ends tonight's history lesson. Good night all.

MTD, Sr.

read what it says:
 

Basically what it is saying is that in (C) the Referee completely blew it when he checked the book "team list" etc, and allowed both numbers to be there and now the game has started and since you approved the book, there is nothing that you can do until both players were to participate in the game.

seems pretty simple.

This hornet's nest started with a simple mistake . . .
 

and it's easy to correct. There's no reason any team needs to have either a 0 or 00. They should just outlaw them both.

I Don't Think That Robert Parish Is Going To Play In Any NFHS Games Anytime Soon ...
 

I almost agree. We don't allow 01, 02, 03, 04, or 05. Why do we allow 00? When computers at the table became common, and the NFHS changed the rule, not allow both 0, and 00, they should have just said, no 00, instead of this one, or the other, nonsense. Maybe give the schools a year, or two, to get rid of the jerseys with the number 00.

2008-09 NFHS Casebook Play 3.2.2 SITUATION B(b).
 

States: "Three minutes before the game starts, it is discovered: (b) two Team B team members are wearing the same number. RULING: In (b), a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating. (R10-S1-A2)"

Therefore, the RULING in 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation SITUATION 2(b) and (c) is incorrect. The Casebook Play has been in effect since before the NFHS and NCAA adopted the either "0" or "00" but not both rule. When the NFHS and NCAA adopted the either "0" or "00" but not both rule, "0" and "00" were to be considered the same number because, as I stated in my earlier history lesson regarding reason for the rule's adoption computers could and I suppose they still cannot tell the difference between "0" and "00".

So ends tonight history lesson. :D

MTD, Sr.

I don't quite agree. 0 and 00 may be the same mathematical number but they are "different". So, there is some wiggle room for both items to be correct.

Camron:

In all of the rules clinics that I attended when the rule was first adopted, the reason given was that since a computer cannot tell the difference between "0" and "00" the rules committees considered them the same number just like the computer does. Either way, the RULING in the Rules Interpretations is incorrect and the Casebook Play RULING is correct.

MTD, Sr.

I was going to comment in the OP that I believe that the 0, 00 situation on the same member list should be treated in the same manner as identical numbers even though they are not.

Of course, now that I know that MTD holds this position, I'll have to reconsider. :D

What bothers me about this interpretation is precisely that I disagree with that statement. The NFHS ruling is tantamount to telling the team, "We know that you just broke one of the rules, but we aren't going to penalize you unless you also do something else." To me, that's not proper.

That's a solid point, Adam. Of course, there isn't a penalty listed with that rule. This leaves us in the same situation as with another rule which we have previously discussed on this forum, namely, "The official scorebook shall remain at the scorer’s table throughout the game, including all intermissions," from 2-11-11.
Since there is no specified penalty for either rule, I would invoke 2-3 and charge a team technical foul in both cases.

You realize there is a question about 0 and 00 on this year's test, right? Is that what led you to post this?

Too Confusing For Me, I'll Just Let My Partner Handle It ...
 

Now you guys know why I left the 0, 00, issue out of my recent Administrative Technical Foul Penalty study guide. It was too confusing, are they treated as illegal, or identical, or both. I just left this part out.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...penalties.html

Billy:

Think of it this way:

1) Team A has a player listed in the book wearing the number "0"; that is legal.

2) Team A has a player listed in the book wearing the number "00"; that is legal.

3) Team A has a player listed in the book wearing the number "0" and another player listed in the book wearing hte number "00"; these considered identical numbers. The first player listed is legal and the second player listed must change his number. The penalty is one (1) technical foul charged to the team.

MTD, Sr.

I must have overlooked that. Can you provide the question #?

Couldn't the first player listed be illegal and the second one be legal? :eek:

I don't have my books on me but why is it a T for 2 members to wear the same number 3 minutes before the game starts...or before both players participate in the game for that matter? It doesn't necessarily mean that identical numbers are in the book for those players.

What is the wording of rule 10-1-2?

10-1-2e: (After the 10 minute mark...) Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

My take:

While having both 0 and 00 on the team member list is a violation of 3-4-3d, there's no penalty listed in that section.

0 and 00 are not identical. The second becomes illegal only when that player enters the game -- and it's then charged to the coach. (10-5-4)

Suppose the roster had a number 66 on it (or one team member put a "memorial patch" with a number on it on his/her uniform). Would we penalize immediately? No -- only when (if) that player entered. Same with 0 an 00.

Yep.

Peace

10-15 players, 35 numbers to pick from.....just remove 0 and 00 from the list of legal numbers? How many 0 or 00's do you guys really see out there?

In 14 years, I've seen 0 once.

Not counting the one JV girl game where she was a 10 the first half and came out as a 0 for the second. (The iron-on 1 fell off). The official had us do the white athletic tape trick to make a 1.

I have seen the number multiple times over the years. You do not see them every game, but you see them or even every season, but you will see them from time to time. And how many times we see the number is really not relevant if you ask me. This is allowed and we deal with it.

Peace

Is there a specific rule prohibiting the team member list from containing the number 66?

yes

Really? Please provide the citation.

My bad. I thought you were asking a rhetorical question. The point is that 0 and 00, while both legal numbers, are specifically forbidden from being on the same list. Other illegal number are not specifically forbidden from the list.
Is that the point? IOW, is it ok for a player to wear 66 every night, so long as he doesn't play?

Nice number, No playing time!!!

Exactly. You have correctly comprehended the situation.

Shoulda known better. You don't ask a lot of rhetorical questions, do you?:D

Why can't A 66 enter the game? It's just an illegal number... B shoots two ft's and gets the ball and play on?

Don't forget about the coach taking a sit for the rest of the game. :D

Should have said can a player wear 66 every night without penalty, so long as he doesn't play?

The answer to your question is yes because of the specific wording used in 10-5-4.

"The head coach shall not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform."

Therefore, a kid wearing 66 is not breaking any rule if he doesn't play.

Notice how this is different from the rule involving 0 and 00. That rule doesn't say something such as "a team shall not have players wearing both 0 and 00 participate during a game." (Which would be a better rule in my opinion and would make the ruling in the NFHS interp proper.) It simply says, "a team member list shall not have both..." :(