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-   -   Couple questions from Exam part 1 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/49645-couple-questions-exam-part-1-a.html)

jritchie Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:55am
Couple questions from Exam part 1
 
Just looking through part 1 test and don't have my books available to me right now! I have answers below if someone would like to comment!

7. coach is assessed an INDIRECT tech when dq'd player participates again.
8. coach is assessed ONE DIRECT tech for illegal uniforms when discovered
11. only the REFEREE is authorized to correct a scoring mistake
13. error is free throw by wrong player, the throw and any common foul commited during such a throw is cancelled
19. lane spaces on each side of the free throw lane are 2 ft. DEEP?

7. FALSE, DIRECT T
8. FALSE, INDIRECT
11. FALSE, ANY OF THE OFFICIALS I WOULD THINK
13. TRUE, PRETTY SURE YOU CANCEL THE COMMON FOUL TOO
19. FALSE, DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW DEEP THE LANES SPACES ARE, NEED A BOOK, I KNOW THEY ARE 3 FT WIDE.... IF I HAD TO GUESS I WOULD GUESS FALSE

ajs8207 Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:02pm
I'm pretty sure the coach is assessed one direct technical for illegal uniforms, making #8 true.

Ch1town Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:10pm
#8. T (new) 10-5-4
#11. I'm thinking T as 2-5 list the referees duties.
#19. 36" deep

jritchie Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajs8207 (Post 547648)
I'm pretty sure the coach is assessed one direct technical for illegal uniforms, making #8 true.
I would guess that since it's the coaches responsibility to buy the uniforms, that would make sense!

Adam Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie (Post 547655)
I would guess that since it's the coaches responsibility to buy the uniforms, that would make sense!
I'll bet this is true less than half the time.

agr8zebra Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:41pm
Scoring Error
Check 2-10-1e, almost word for word

jritchie Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 547659)
I'll bet this is true less than half the time.
Definitely not true around here! All the coaches pick out their uni's with a little input from the seniors!

Adam Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie (Post 547668)
Definitely not true around here! All the coaches pick out their uni's with a little input from the seniors!
This is going to be regional, but I'm guessing the ADs are at least as likely to pick out uniforms. But, it's only a guess.

OHBBREF Fri Oct 31, 2008 01:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie (Post 547644)
Just looking through part 1 test and don't have my books available to me right now! I have answers below if someone would like to comment!

7. coach is assessed an INDIRECT tech when dq'd player participates again.
8. coach is assessed ONE DIRECT tech for illegal uniforms when discovered
11. only the REFEREE is authorized to correct a scoring mistake
13. error is free throw by wrong player, the throw and any common foul commited during such a throw is cancelled
19. lane spaces on each side of the free throw lane are 2 ft. DEEP?


13. TRUE, PRETTY SURE YOU CANCEL THE COMMON FOUL TOO
19. FALSE, DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW DEEP THE LANES SPACES ARE, NEED A BOOK, I KNOW THEY ARE 3 FT WIDE.... IF I HAD TO GUESS I WOULD GUESS FALSE
13. False everything that happens counts the only thing that you do not wipe out are flagrant/intentional personals, or technical fouls NCAA but I believe High school is the same.

19.false - the lane space I believe is 3 or more feet deep

IUgrad92 Fri Oct 31, 2008 02:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 547699)
13. False everything that happens counts the only thing that you do not wipe out are flagrant/intentional personals, or technical fouls NCAA but I believe High school is the same.

19.false - the lane space I believe is 3 or more feet deep

13 is true. See 2-10-4

agr8zebra Fri Oct 31, 2008 04:49pm
Lane space is not 3 or more.... it is only 3 feet deep

ajs8207 Fri Oct 31, 2008 06:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 547669)
This is going to be regional, but I'm guessing the ADs are at least as likely to pick out uniforms. But, it's only a guess.
I think that point is irrelevant. The point is the players don't pick out the uniforms and shouldn't be responsible for what the school gives them. I think the Fed doesn't want to penalize the players for something they have no control over.

Nevadaref Sat Nov 01, 2008 01:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie (Post 547644)
11. only the REFEREE is authorized to correct a scoring mistake
...
11. FALSE, ANY OF THE OFFICIALS I WOULD THINK
Quote:
Originally Posted by agr8zebra (Post 547666)
Scoring Error
Check 2-10-1e, almost word for word
Both of you should take a look at 2-11-11.

If a scoring mistake is made, not as a result of any decision by the officials on the court, but solely due to the scorer making a mistake, this does not qualify as a correctable error. It is simply a bookkeeping mistake.

Adam Sat Nov 01, 2008 05:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajs8207 (Post 547821)
I think that point is irrelevant. The point is the players don't pick out the uniforms and shouldn't be responsible for what the school gives them. I think the Fed doesn't want to penalize the players for something they have no control over.
Not completely. By this logic, is it fair to penalize the coach for something he has no control over? What if it's his first year?
And, FWIW, the players are penalized for this behavior by the technical foul. Giving two free shots and the ball to the other team.
I just want to be careful about this reasoning, as it leads some officials to withhold technical fouls that need to be called. "Well, I didn't want to penalize the kids in such a close game for the coach being an azz."

OHBBREF Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 (Post 547742)
13 is true. See 2-10-4
mis read the original post you are correct wipe the throw wipe the common foul but not the other stuff.

w_sohl Sun Nov 02, 2008 01:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 547883)
Both of you should take a look at 2-11-11.

If a scoring mistake is made, not as a result of any decision by the officials on the court, but solely due to the scorer making a mistake, this does not qualify as a correctable error. It is simply a bookkeeping mistake.
I think any of the officials can bring it to the attention of the referee, however the final word is the referee's

Adam Sun Nov 02, 2008 07:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by w_sohl (Post 547996)
I think any of the officials can bring it to the attention of the referee, however the final word is the referee's
According to 2-11-11, the scorer can fix it without the referee's help. Presumably, this would also mean they could use the help of U1 or U2.

Adam Sun Nov 02, 2008 07:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 547883)
Both of you should take a look at 2-11-11.

If a scoring mistake is made, not as a result of any decision by the officials on the court, but solely due to the scorer making a mistake, this does not qualify as a correctable error. It is simply a bookkeeping mistake.
Are you saying the statement was true?

Nevadaref Sun Nov 02, 2008 08:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 548008)
Are you saying the statement was true?
Yes.

Adam Sun Nov 02, 2008 09:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 548100)
Yes.
Okay, I'm in. Based on what?

just another ref Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:05pm
Scorers correct their own mistakes all the time, without even notifying the officials. 2-11-11 deals with a discrepancy between two books. In this situation there may not have even been a mistake anywhere except in the visitor's book, which is not the referee's concern.

Nevadaref Mon Nov 03, 2008 03:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 548127)
Scorers correct their own mistakes all the time, without even notifying the officials. 2-11-11 deals with a discrepancy between two books.
While it may be true that scorers do that, it is not proper practice. They should notify the referee before making any changes to the books because the books are the official record of what happened in the game. (And I'm not talking about the simple "oops I just wrote that on the wrong side sorry...erase...erase...I'll put in where it belongs." I'm talking about one scorer seeing the Trail official signal a three point goal and the other who was blowing his nose didn't and wrote down two points. Three minutes later when they add up the totals at the end of the quarter and one book doesn't match the other book or the scoreboard, that scorer should not make a correction to his book on his own without telling the referee.) The reason that there are supposed to be two books is to provide a check on the first and ensure that simple errors do not occur. They are to contain the same information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 548127)
In this situation there may not have even been a mistake anywhere except in the visitor's book, which is not the referee's concern.
Totally wrong! The books are to match, and for that very reason the referee should be concerned with what is in the visiting book.

As 2-11-11 clearly says, the official scorer is to "[c]ompare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy."

The referee is to rectify the discrepancy by finding the error, applying his definite knowledge to resolve the difference, or accepting the record of the official book.

Nevadaref Mon Nov 03, 2008 04:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 548110)
Okay, I'm in. Based on what?
Because the rule clearly says the REFEREE is the one who corrects any discrepancies in the book. It doesn't say the nearest official or any official who is notified.
Also the REFEREE is the person who designates the official book (2-4-3) and approves the halftime score (2-5-7), and the final score (2-5-7, 2-11-11). The book is under the purview of the REFEREE.

Adam Mon Nov 03, 2008 08:26am
I see it now. For some reason, I was including correctable errors in this; equating "scoring" with, well, points rather than seeing "scoring mistake" as a mistake by the scorer.

jritchie Mon Nov 03, 2008 09:06am
Finally my books!!
Okay, I understand what you guys are talking about on the scoring and scorer issues, it says the REFEREE makes the final decision. But this question was talking about correctable errors and in 2-10-1 it says: OFFICIALS may correct an error.......so I have to take that as too question #11, since it's under the section on correctable errors on the test, as FALSE! If it was under the scoring section, we would have to say True, but since it is talking about correctable errors, shouldn't this question be false????

bob jenkins Mon Nov 03, 2008 09:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie (Post 548173)
Finally my books!!
Okay, I understand what you guys are talking about on the scoring and scorer issues, it says the REFEREE makes the final decision. But this question was talking about correctable errors and in 2-10-1 it says: OFFICIALS may correct an error.......so I have to take that as too question #11, since it's under the section on correctable errors on the test, as FALSE! If it was under the scoring section, we would have to say True, but since it is talking about correctable errors, shouldn't this question be false????

1) I woulnd't consider the "heading information" to be part of the question.

2) You originally wrote that the question was, "11. only the REFEREE is authorized to correct a scoring mistake" In fact, the question is, "Only the referee is authorized to correct the erroneous awarding of a score." That's a completely different question, and one that is easily answered in the book (2-10-1).

just another ref Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 548157)
While it may be true that scorers do that, it is not proper practice. They should notify the referee before making any changes to the books because the books are the official record of what happened in the game. (And I'm not talking about the simple "oops I just wrote that on the wrong side sorry...erase...erase...I'll put in where it belongs." I'm talking about one scorer seeing the Trail official signal a three point goal and the other who was blowing his nose didn't and wrote down two points. Three minutes later when they add up the totals at the end of the quarter and one book doesn't match the other book or the scoreboard, that scorer should not make a correction to his book on his own without telling the referee.) The reason that there are supposed to be two books is to provide a check on the first and ensure that simple errors do not occur. They are to contain the same information.



Totally wrong! The books are to match, and for that very reason the referee should be concerned with what is in the visiting book.

As 2-11-11 clearly says, the official scorer is to "[c]ompare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy."

The referee is to rectify the discrepancy by finding the error, applying his definite knowledge to resolve the difference, or accepting the record of the official book.
So you're saying if the visiting scorer marks a field goal as a 2 instead of a 3, when the books are compared and the mistake is discovered, the referee should be notified before making a correction in the visitor's book?
Not in the real world.

My take here is that the referee, without question, is the final authority, but his approval is not necessary to correct every little mistake.

Back In The Saddle Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:55am
Would you rather have the scorekeepers making corrections without you knowing? I would rather know there was an issue, what the issue was, how it was fixed, and how sure the scorekeepers are that the fix is right. If it becomes an issue later in the game, I don't want to be blindsided by it.

Nevadaref Mon Nov 03, 2008 06:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 548179)
2) You originally wrote that the question was, "11. only the REFEREE is authorized to correct a scoring mistake" In fact, the question is, "Only the referee is authorized to correct the erroneous awarding of a score." That's a completely different question, and one that is easily answered in the book (2-10-1).
Once again, Bob is spot on! ;)
The first is a bookkeeping mistake. Only the referee deals with that. There was no rule set aside by the officials on the court that resulted in this, so it does not qualify as a correctable error. (Note that along with being one of the five items listed, the error must be due to the setting aside of a rule by the officials. Both of those requirements must be met for something to be classified as a correctable error. Otherwise, the situation is just a mistake which sometimes can be fixed and sometimes can't.)
The second is a clearly defined correctable error. Any official is authorized to handle a correctable error, but the referee should certainly be involved.

Always listen to Bob. :)


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