Officiating Philosophy ?
 

Team A has a huge lead on Team B, we're talking 25+ points here. Start of the second half, Team A comes right out with a full court press and scores two quick baskets. I don't like what I'm seeing, so I start to use a bit of my philosophy here and start calling fouls on the pressing team (Team A) when they come into contact with the team bringing the ball up. (Team B) Keep in mind, I am calling all contact. My intention is to get Team A out of the press and at least let Team B get the ball past half-court. Eventually the coach of Team A gets the hint and backs the press off for the rest of the game.

Was I wrong for doing this? Should I have let Team A continue to press the heck out of Team B?

While I'm sure we've all been there and certainly feel your pain, you are not the coach! "Your intention is to get Team A out of the press?" :confused: You/your partner's intention should be to be to call the best game you can, not impose your own philosophy.

You are the ref. An impartial member of the 3rd team on the floor. Remember, the only people in the entire gym who don't (shouldn't) care who wins are you and your partner(s).

Your mission is to call the game as you see it - a foul in the first minute is a foul in the last minute. Distasteful as it may be, you should not influence the score/game because of personal bias and not liking a coaches philosphy. JMO

Oh, my!!!
Yes, that was very wrong.

At an upper level, competitive deal...such as sanctioned HS event...totally wrong. I don't like it that they feel the need to press with 25 point lead...but it happens.

Lower level, say 6th and below......I know where you are coming from....been there.

Perhaps what might be incidental contact in a 1-2 point game is not incidental in the 25+ point game. If we can deem contact incidental and not blow the whistle, we can certainly deem the contact not incidental and blow the whistle. ;)

Being a guy that officiates, sits on the local youth league board, coaches and wants to joing the positive coaching alliance....sometimes at lower levels, I have all my hats on when I'm wearing the stripes.

Agreed with Coltdoggs. Had this same situation last week. Sometimes the coaches need a little help to realize what is appropriate at the youth level. At times, coaches are just starting out at this level and they don't realize how inappropriate it is to be pressing when up by 25. It's a good way to pi$$ people off. (Can I say p*^^?)

-Josh

On the other hand, maybe the team that is ahead is preparing for their next game which will be against a really good team and they will need to be able to press them. The coach is working on the press and wants his kids to learn how to run it effectively. It's unfortunate that a team is losing badly, but it's not our job to "teach" the coach how we think he should be coaching.

What the OP'er did was feed into the mythology floating around out there that officials decide who wins the game by calling it inconsistently. What wasn't a foul early - before the 25 point lead - has suddenly become a foul. That's not right.

What happens when you've made a change to your calling, and the losing team pulls their heads out of their a$$es and makes a comeback? 25 points is big, but it's been done before.

Rock...At the lower level....Sorry...there is an element of sportsmanship that's being overlooked if you are pressing with a 25 point lead. You probably "worked on your press" this game to get that much of a lead anyway. Why not work on another area of your game like perfecting your offensive sets with crisp passing and not shooting the ball?

Most youth leagues I've worked don't allow a press past 20 but if you want to continue to pile on against what is obviously a sub-par team that can't break a press...there is just no place in youth sports for that. It's not win at all costs by as much as you can....that's for professional sports or a-holes and even pros will back off.

I agree that consistency is our goal but at lower level, I can and will stand by my position on incidental contact. I can tell you that it only takes about 3calls before the coach puts his sportsmanship cap back on. Incidental contact is a judgement call on our part and if you want to press with a 20+ point lead....fine, just make sure you are not making contact I deem more than incidental.

Snags- good question....at some point the pressing team who has backed out is going to get back into it and it's going to be at a point (like under 20 points) at which point I don't really have a problem with it because as stated...most use the 20 point as the benchmark for allowing this...In those cases where that rule is not in play...that's what I work with in my philosophy on this matter.

Colt, so what your saying is that the coaches, league officials, and parents can't decide what sportsmanship is, so therefore as the referee you will? At what level do you decide it's ok and they're old enough and the coaches mature? 4th grade? 5th? 6th? I understand what you're saying, but disagree.


PS - edited for spelling error before spelling police got me....

I will speak for myself as I do not want to put words into anyone's mouths ;)

My professional philosophy is that there are at least two situations when things get out of hand at a moments notice, when the score is extremely tight and a "blow-out". When there is such a scoring disparity, tempers start to flare easily. It's a very volatile situation.

My partner(s) and I talk about both situations in our pregame and remind each other not to let our guard down if the later happens. I believe that some officials become relaxed and do not exercise the utmost attentiveness when the score becomes out of hand but it'll bite you in the rear someday. I will speak for myself and say that when the score is not tight, sometimes I get relaxed and complacent. Maybe I could even say that my alertness is not at it's peak. That's why it's a pregame topic for me. The P(s) remind each other to stay alert in these situations.

Concerning the OP, I don't call every incident of contact a foul if it wasn't a foul prior to the point spread (probably because it's not a foul). (I equate this to opening up the strikezone in baseball. It's not professionally ethical). I simply elevate my alertness and call the game as if it were a one point game (both ways). I don't want to make it seem that I don't stay attentive during the entire game but an intentional heightened alertness is given to these situations.

With 5-6th graders, their athletic abilities are not extremely keen at this age. They are still finding themselves physically and they don't necessarily control their aggressiveness well (IE there tend to be a lot of crashes from my experience). In the beginning of the game, I might let a few more go as incidental and talk with the players a bit more. At this age, I find, it helps to talk because the kids actually will pay attention to what is being said. Although, they might not remember what was said. However, with a disparity of points and as the tone of the game as set, these crashes will become less because the talking stops and the whistle blows.

Some youth leagues I work, they are very well coached and I don't wander into the arena of encouraging the players as much. Some leagues are unfortunately not like that. If they aren't getting positive feedback from the coaches and are getting discouraged, I'll encourage them a little bit. For instance, the player just turned the ball over twice and fouled on the other end out of frustration. I might pass by and might say "good hustle gentleman!" I won't say a specific number, I'll just encourage everyone to keep up the great work. I consider this preventative officiating.

Just my two cents. Hopefully that I made sense. Unfortunately, work keeps getting in the way of my posting. I need to find a job where I can eliminate the interruptions.

-Josh

I understand why you are doing it and I personally like the thought process you have and I am ok with it but you need to go more in depth with it. You have to take into account the time (if there is 5 min. Left and its 20-25 points I won't do it. Now if its 2 min. Probably will). Also I don't call every bit of contact but I do call more marginal fouls.

I know I'm gonna get ripped for going with this philosophy but by using this the coach of the team getting beat will be less mad and the coach winning won't mind backing out of it. Jmo and I'm sure not well liked by the community here. Maybe this opinion will bring Jurassic out of the woodworks.

Grune...fair question. It depends on the league and really more so the talent level to be honest. One rec league I work in that is instructional for the kids...equal playing time and such... has a no press after 10 point rule and they can only press in the last 2 mins of Q3 and Q4 so it's not even an issue.

The other "travel" league I typically ref in and will be coaching in this year, they have the 20 point press rule. These are typically kids better than the rec players from a physical skill ability and mental understanding. As stated, if they are doing a tourney where they waive that and simply play NFHS rules...then I use 20 as my own meter for this philosophical debate on how I am going to judge the incidental contat.

I will say that because of my background as a board member of youth leagues and personal beliefs and things I bring into officiating from a coaches standpoint can sometimes overlap when I am officiating. There is a fine line with that...

I enjoy the younger age groups because that is what I am around with my own kids and the teaching aspect is something I like when officiating for the younger kids.

When I do older kids who understand the game there is less and less of that....honestly I've seen some really good 4th grade travel teams that would run some 6th or 7th grade rec teams off the floor . I just did a game the other day where 7th graders were playing up in the Freshman league....
the 6'3" center for the freshman team was one of the 7th graders....

I'm not trying to play judge-jury-executioner by any means but you have to understand my whole background as it pertains to youth sports. I definately feel my perspective is a bit different than most because I have played, I've coached, I currently coach, I volunteer my time to serve on the youth league boards and I have officiated at the MS/JRHS level for 8+ years.....The harsh reality is that some parents and some coaches don't get it and NEVER will....it's only about lil' Johnny getting his points and winning....and I'm in the camp that it's about the effort and player development....I could give a **** less if my team wins or not.

One more thing..I meant to include in my disjointed post...once again I apoligize for the length and ease of reading.

If I have a reasonable relationship with the coach throughout the game (which it's rarely the case that I don't), if I'm the trail on the bench-side I might backup a little bit near the coach and hint at the idea of not full-court pressing because of the score. For instance last week, I backed up to the coach and said, "Coach, it might be time to call off the dogs since you're up by 35." His response was, "Whoa thanks, I didn't even realize the score was that lopsided." Like young players, young coaches get excited too and lose their composure. I would not pursue the issue any further, no matter how he reacted, but sometimes a gentle hint will remind the coach of the situation. It's a one and done deal in my opinion. If I hint, I leave it alone the rest of the game. In fact, I tell my partner the next timeout that I've gave the hint so leave it alone. I don't want to corner the coach into thinking we are instructing him how to coach.

In var/college/etc...knowledgeable assistant coaches tame the head coach and remind him of these situations. Therefore, I would never say anything to a var coach. But youth leagues are there for the kids participation.

-Josh

Look, I understand the sentiment at lower levels. However, unless the league sees fit to put the rule in, I'm not going to do it on my own. It's the leagues' responsibility to either put in or not put in mercy rules. They don't hire officials to make up rules; plain and simple.

Agree with all so far, Yes and Yes.

Very true. I agree with you on that. Perhaps I need to fine tune my philosophy a bit

-Josh

By following that leading team, touch foul program, you are possibly rewarding the mediocrity of the losing team's coaches and players.

At those lower levels, I like to officiate to the skills of the better team. If the lesser team cannot keep up, then the lesser team oughta change coaches and players. I won't help them.

Or schedule comparable teams........

Good point. That's another option.

I hear all the MAC teams are lining up to schedule Michigan!!:D

GO GREEN!

Here is the way I see it... I always apply the rhythm, speed, balance and quickness philospy to determine what is a foul and what is not a foul. If the contact does not affect any of those elements it is generally not a foul and is considered incidental. If it does then it is a foul. Better teams can play through more contact than weaker teams.

You can not decide to "make" a coach change his coaching strategies.... that is for the administrators (for the kids/ developmental leagues). At the high school level it is generally sorted out in the years to come. There will be a time when the winning coach team is actually the weaker team and the other coach will have a chance to rub his nose in it if he so desires.

Perhaps I should have made the level of the game clearer. It was a combined 6th and 7th grade team. When the coach of Team A finally backed off the press, Team B actually made it past half court but not much further. The final score differential ended up being 40 points, so my actions didn't cost them a win at all. Not even close. This what not something I arbitrarily did on my own either, my partner and I talked about it at halftime.

So I guess I should have let Team A humiliate Team B?

Your job is to officiate the rules of basketball. Nothing more.

Once you start worrying about teams/players getting "humiliated"* you enter into very dangerous territory as an official. Would you call fouls on cleanly blocked shots just because the crowd reacts wildly to a kid getting his $%*& stuffed? Would you call a technical on a kid for posterizing another kid on a dunk?

Just blow the whistle when you see an infraction of the rules as you interpret them. Going outside that scope is a slippery slope you don't want to go down.

Just my $0.02.



*outside of unsportsmanlike conduct, of course.

Is it your job to protect one team from being humiliated? Absolutely not...

I coach HS football...two weeks ago we lost 55-7 to a team that kept their starters in the entire game trying to score lots of points. We didn't stop them...some parents complained to me after the game about what the other team did, and my response was that OUR kids needed to look in the mirror and decide to get better so that wouldn't happen again. This weekend we beat a team 52-14. We scored on our first 4 possessions and I pulled our starting backfield and played the rest of the game with freshmen and sophomores running the ball. Do I tell them to only run 5 yards and then fall down? Hell no...they have worked hard all season and had a chance to earn the reward for that. The officials just called the game. They didn't start nitpicking us because we were ahead, or nitpicking the team two weeks ago that spanked us...it's not your job to "protect" players from being bad.

Oh well...I guess you live and you learn.

Would I ever do something like this in a HS game, or one that actually counts? No. But the way the game was being played at this level, I felt this was appropriate.

My final regular season game last year was the two defending National Champions in Christian College Division II of the year before - Kentucky Christian vs. Freewill Baptist .
The half time score 48 - 6, there isn't anything you can do, if Kentucky Christian wants to press the entire game and beat them 82 -10 ( final was actually 88 - 24, (Kentucky's defense was horible in the second half:D). The only thing youcan do is get the ball in play quickly and keep time moving as fast as you can, you make sure that everyone can play through the contact as much as possible and try to keep the whistle in your mouth and get it over with, pray for no disasters, and get off the floor.

Okay that is college - but if you do anything different for either side you are effecting the outcome of the game and that is exactly what you are not supposed to do.

In the first quarter, A3 dunks on B5, complete facial. A3 catches B5 off guard again and dunks on him again, complete humiliation. In the third quarter, A3 drives baselin and B5 again tries to jump and block A3's shot... Another dunk.

Do you call travelling or 3 seconds on A3 to keep B5 from being humiliated again?

At the lower levels, middle school or earlier, I think a 25+ point lead can be determined to be insurmountable by the first few minutes of the second half: the opponents body language, physical/talent discrepancy that would void any tactical adjustments, etc. A coach/league with good sportsmanship should call off the full court press when it is evident.

At the High School levels, my teams have been part of 25 point 2nd half comebacks as well as letting 20+ point leads dwindle (fortunately we did not let them all the way back and won the close games down the stretch), and I've seen games with dramatic lead changes/momentum shifts. I saw a game last year where Team A was losing by 20+ in the first half trying to guard Team B man to man, came out in a sagging zone and won by 5 or 6. At this level, if your team's success if based primarily on full court pressure, I would stay with it unless a team is clearly overmatched with absolutely no hope of going on a run.

I had a team that was horribly overmatched that particular year. When other teams would pull off the press, I would tell the opposing coaches (that i was familiar with) to keep pressing. My guys could not ever duplicate anything close to that type of pressure and athleticism in practice, so it was the best place for them to practice against.

No issues with anything anyone has said...in fact, I'm loving the dialouge and perspective.

We all have a view of it and bring a unique perspective to this type of thing.

Again, I am allowed to deem contact incidental or not as the official and will always fall back on that. I'm not dealing with a black and white issue of say punching a kid in the nose or picking up a dribble and starting again and can choose to pass on those...I must call something there provided I see it.

Contact between a defender and dribbler is subject to what I see, interpret under my understanding of the rules and if I feel that contact put one of those players at a dis-advantage then I will blow the whistle.

We have all adjusted our calls in games before...if it were getting too physical we tighten up to send a message to the players. We don't let them continue to pound on each other and let tempers escalate.....I would equate my philosophy on this matter to that. Again...only I can determine for myself if contact is incidental or not and perhaps I simply don't feel contact on FCP, up 20+ points is incidental at that juncture.

EDIT FOR: I'm strictly talking about lower level stuff...not HS and in some cases, not 7th/8th grade.

A few weeks ago, I had 8th grade Team A up by 24 at the half.
Team A came out pressing hard in the 3rd and at a dead ball, I asked the coach if her team was going to continue pressing the entire game.

She said, "I told them to drop back, but they get so excited, they keep forgetting."

;)

this is pretty much how we call every game is it not?


This is what we do every game we set a tone and the players play to it. So why would you change that philosophy for any game?

Just making my case that perhaps during the FCP with a huge lead I no longer see the contact as incidental, that's all.

Here's how I do it.

If one team is clearly over matched, then they are likely less able to play through contact that could otherwise be incidental. If they can't play through it, it's more likely to be a foul.

But I'm not calling fouls for the sole purpose of teaching the winning coach a lesson.

That's well put Snags...and really what I am thinking with my ideals on this matter. Is there a slight sense of "Hey a-hole...you're up by 25-30 points and still pressing..." sure...

Isn't this what I said on the previous page??? :D

well, then, I agree with the Junkie.

Perhaps, but I try to avoid this; it really is a bias and one should try to avoid those on the court.

First, it's not an official's place to say this to a coach, anytime, anywhere, any league.

Second, if you believe that BS I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Rocky gave two examples of games where a team got blown out one week and blew a team out the next. Sometimes in sports, teams just get blown out and it has nothing to do with the officiating. To just look at a team pressing or whatever doesn't really give a clear picture of sportsmanship.

How about this?

How about applying that same awareness to the pursuit of the perfectly officiated game? I think that energy could be better spent someplace else. Sometimes teams are just that much better than the other team.

+1

You shouldn't say this to a coach. You are opening up to many possibilities. What if a coach goes off and starts yelling, "Don't worry about how I coach my team, you can't tell me what plays to call!" Are you prepared to give the coach a T? Sometimes opening your mouth can cause you to really step in it.

Please Press ...
 

Back in my coaching days, we were down by twenty points at halftime, and I asked the opposing coach to please continue to press us for at least the third period, so that we could continue to work on our press break. I informed the officials, and fans, about my request, so they wouldn't think the other coach was being unsporting. It helped us. The next time a team pressed us, we were ready.

Yes ... Your job is to referee the game. Just call it like it needs to be called and don't allow game/coaching philosophy to interfere with officiating philosophy.