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-   -   Last second three? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/49362-last-second-three.html)

surehands Wed Oct 15, 2008 07:50am

Last second three?
 
The score is tied. With 1 second ledft on the clock in he 4th quarter. A1 releases a jump shot from beyond the three point arc. After the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, B1 fouls A1. The foul is not intentional or flagrant. A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?
Count A1's three point basket;charge a foulto B1: and shoot no free throws???????

All_Heart Wed Oct 15, 2008 08:32am

You got it! :)

JugglingReferee Wed Oct 15, 2008 08:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by surehands (Post 543200)
The score is tied. With 1 second ledft on the clock in he 4th quarter. A1 releases a jump shot from beyond the three point arc. After the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, B1 fouls A1. The foul is not intentional or flagrant. A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?
Count A1's three point basket;charge a foulto B1: and shoot no free throws???????

Since the release for the try was before the horn sounded, the attempt is good if ruled successful. Since A1's last position on the floor was beyond the arc, the try is a 3-point try. Since B1 fouled A1 before A1 returned to the floor, it is a "shooting foul". Since the basket went in, A leads by 3, and since the outcome of the game is already determined, do not shoot the free throws. Yes, do report the foul to the table. In fact, at the table, you would count the basket with a successful 3-point signal, report the foul, type of foul (blocking perhaps), and then state that the game is over.

mick Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 543211)
Since the release for the try was before the horn sounded, the attempt is good if ruled successful. Since A1's last position on the floor was beyond the arc, the try is a 3-point try. Since B1 fouled A1 before A1 returned to the floor, it is a "shooting foul". Since the basket went in, A leads by 3, and since the outcome of the game is already determined, do not shoot the free throws. Yes, do report the foul to the table. In fact, at the table, you would count the basket with a successful 3-point signal, report the foul, type of foul (blocking perhaps), and then state that the game is over.

I've been looking for the ruling, but I cannot find it.

Do you have a reference for that? I may run into some kid that needs one more point for a 9th grade scoring record.
Thanks.

Scrapper1 Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick (Post 543221)
I've been looking for the ruling, but I cannot find it.

NFHS 5-6-2, Exception 3: "No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game."

NCAA 5-7-3.a.1 is the similar ruling for college.

mick Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543235)
NFHS 5-6-2, Exception 3: "No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game."

NCAA 5-7-3.a.1 is the similar ruling for college.

Thank you kindly, Scrapper1 :)

fullor30 Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 543211)
Since the release for the try was before the horn sounded, the attempt is good if ruled successful. Since A1's last position on the floor was beyond the arc, the try is a 3-point try. Since B1 fouled A1 before A1 returned to the floor, it is a "shooting foul". Since the basket went in, A leads by 3, and since the outcome of the game is already determined, do not shoot the free throws. Yes, do report the foul to the table. In fact, at the table, you would count the basket with a successful 3-point signal, report the foul, type of foul (blocking perhaps), and then state that the game is over.

My first year officiating, I was doing a 8th grade girls game and A1 was fouled at the buzzer in the act of shooting. Team A was leading by two. I tooted, reported the foul and meekly said the game was over. A1 was almost bawling and wanted to shoot the free throws encouraged by a few parents and teammates. I said OK, and my veteran partner almost killed me.

I always bring it up talking about the good old days.

P.S. she clanked both shots.

Mark Padgett Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 543249)
I tooted

Ya' gotta stop eating burritos at halftime. :p

SmokeEater Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:36pm

Lets change this up just a bit.

The score is tied. With 1 second left on the clock in the 4th quarter. On a layup attempt, after the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, A1 contacts B1 who has established legal defensive position. The shot bounces on the rim a bit and then A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?

I would be interested if this ruling would be different for FIBA, NFHS, & NCAA.

tjones1 Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:38pm

Fed

Player control - no bucket, overtime.

CoachP Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 543289)
Lets change this up just a bit.

The score is tied. With 1 second left on the clock in he 4th quarter. On a layup attempt, after the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, A1 contacts B1 who has established legal defensive position. The shot bounces on the rim a bit and then A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?

I would be interested if this ruling would be different for FIBA, NFHS, & NCAA.

Depends....not all contact is a foul.:)

But, you probably meant A1 knocked B1 on his or her dairy air. Then tjones1 has it right.

Scrapper1 Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:50pm

NCAA-M: Score the basket, shoot 1-and-1 at the other end if B is in the bonus. If either free throw misses, the game is over.

SmokeEater Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543298)
NCAA-M: Score the basket, shoot 1-and-1 at the other end if B is in the bonus. If either free throw misses, the game is over.

Womens and FIBA I believe is the same. This is based on the fact the ball has been released.

Thanks

Scrapper1 Wed Oct 15, 2008 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 543303)
Womens and FIBA I believe is the same.

I'm 95% sure that NCAA-W is the same as NFHS on this. Actually, I just looked at the rulebook. I'm 100% sure. :) No basket, no free throws for NCAA-W.

SmokeEater Wed Oct 15, 2008 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543307)
I'm 95% sure that NCAA-W is the same as NFHS on this. Actually, I just looked at the rulebook. I'm 100% sure. :) No basket, no free throws for NCAA-W.

Ok thanks I stand corrected. Well actually I'm sitting.

eg-italy Wed Oct 15, 2008 04:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 543289)
Lets change this up just a bit.

The score is tied. With 1 second left on the clock in the 4th quarter. On a layup attempt, after the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, A1 contacts B1 who has established legal defensive position. The shot bounces on the rim a bit and then A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?

I would be interested if this ruling would be different for FIBA, NFHS, & NCAA.

In FIBA the basket would count, since it was released before time expired; the foul on A1 is a common foul of the team not in control of the ball, so B1 shoots the bonus (if after the 4th foul in the period). However, if time expires before the contact between A1 and B1, the contact is ignored.

Note that the bonus free throws for B1 are to be shooted even if they cannot affect the outcome of the match. Your rule about this is much better.

Ciao

BillyMac Wed Oct 15, 2008 07:11pm

This will happen some day, if it hasn't happened already...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fullor30 (Post 543249)
I was doing a 8th grade girls game and A1 was fouled at the buzzer in the act of shooting. Team A was leading by two. I tooted, reported the foul and meekly said the game was over. A1 was almost bawling and wanted to shoot the free throws encouraged by a few parents and teammates.

It's been several years, and thousands, perhaps, tens of thousands of games since NFHS 5-6-2, Exception 3 was added to the rule book. How long will it be until this happens.

Team A leads Team B 65 to 50, with a few seconds to go in the game. It's the last game of the season for Team A, they didn't win enough games to qualify for any conference, or state tournament. A1, a senior, who a few minutes ago scored his 997th career point, is fouled in the act of shooting a two point try at the final buzzer, with the ball in flight, when the horn sounds. 0:00.0 on the clock, and a final buzzer. Count the basket, Team A is ahead 67 to 50, and A1 has scored his 999th point. The Team A coach told you during the third period intermission that A1 was close to scoring his 1000th career point and that when he did, he wanted a timeout to present A1 with the game ball. How many of you would approve the final score and leave the visual confines of the playing area, leaving A1 with 999 points?

LDUB Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 543400)
Team A leads Team B 65 to 50, with a few seconds to go in the game. It's the last game of the season for Team A, they didn't win enough games to qualify for any conference, or state tournament. A1, a senior, who a few minutes ago scored his 997th career point, is fouled in the act of shooting a two point try at the final buzzer, with the ball in flight, when the horn sounds. 0:00.0 on the clock, and a final buzzer. Count the basket, Team A is ahead 67 to 50, and A1 has scored his 999th point. The Team A coach told you during the third period intermission that A1 was close to scoring his 1000th career point and that when he did, he wanted a timeout to present A1 with the game ball. How many of you would approve the final score and leave the visual confines of the playing area, leaving A1 with 999 points?

So you are asking how many people would cheat to allow A1 to score more points after the game was over so that he could break a record? I would hope no one. It is not the official's job to make sure that one guy is able to score a lot of points. If you want to make sure this guy breaks some record why not just call a lot of fouls on B when he is shooting during the entire game?

Adam Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:24pm

In my game, he walks away from this game with 999 points. It wouldn't be fair to the other record holders to give him an extra-legal way of getting to 1000, for one.

For two (and more importantly); I don't care how many points someone scores, I only care that the game is played by the rules.

tjones1 Wed Oct 15, 2008 09:36pm

I'm walking away, too. The game is over and I've got the rules to support my action.

Back In The Saddle Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:48pm

He scored 999 points? That's amazing. Actually sounds more impressive than 1000. Not that I care. I'm heading to the locker room.

just another ref Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:21am

999 points!! Not in one game, that would be a record. ***










***
Kenny Mayne
ESPN

BillyMac Thu Oct 16, 2008 06:36am

Here Are My Keys Officer, Could You Go And Get My Car For Me ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 543431)
In my game, he walks away from this game with 999 points. It wouldn't be fair to the other record holders to give him an extra-legal way of getting to 1000, for one.

That's the way I would do it. If this was a home game for A1, I might want a police escort to my car after the game.

CoachP Thu Oct 16, 2008 07:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 543400)
It's been several years, and thousands, perhaps, tens of thousands of games since NFHS 5-6-2, Exception 3 was added to the rule book. How long will it be until this happens.

Team A leads Team B 65 to 50, with a few seconds to go in the game. It's the last game of the season for Team A, they didn't win enough games to qualify for any conference, or state tournament. A1, a senior, who a few minutes ago scored his 997th career point, is fouled in the act of shooting a two point try at the final buzzer, with the ball in flight, when the horn sounds. 0:00.0 on the clock, and a final buzzer. Count the basket, Team A is ahead 67 to 50, and A1 has scored his 999th point. The Team A coach told you during the third period intermission that A1 was close to scoring his 1000th career point and that when he did, he wanted a timeout to present A1 with the game ball. How many of you would approve the final score and leave the visual confines of the playing area, leaving A1 with 999 points?

Lesseee....A caring coach....a senior leader.......clock winding down on his career......needs 3 points to hit 1000......and he's firing up a 2 point attempt at the buzzer?????

I doubt it.

JugglingReferee Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachP (Post 543483)
Lesseee....A caring coach....a senior leader.......clock winding down on his career......needs 3 points to hit 1000......and he's firing up a 2 point attempt at the buzzer?????

I doubt it.

Maybe he's stuck inside the arc and tried to draw a foul?

just another ref Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 543400)
Team A leads Team B 65 to 50, with a few seconds to go in the game. It's the last game of the season for Team A, they didn't win enough games to qualify for any conference, or state tournament. A1, a senior, who a few minutes ago scored his 997th career point, is fouled in the act of shooting a two point try at the final buzzer, with the ball in flight, when the horn sounds. 0:00.0 on the clock, and a final buzzer. Count the basket, Team A is ahead 67 to 50, and A1 has scored his 999th point. The Team A coach told you during the third period intermission that A1 was close to scoring his 1000th career point and that when he did, he wanted a timeout to present A1 with the game ball. How many of you would approve the final score and leave the visual confines of the playing area, leaving A1 with 999 points?

With the score 65 to 50, he's gonna gonna really have to get clobbered to get the foul called.

CoachP Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 543491)
With the score 65 to 50, he's gonna gonna really have to get clobbered to get the foul called.

Do the math...how many T's would coach A have to earn to get B enough attempts to warrent a possible 18 FT's and extend the game?

:rolleyes:

IREFU2 Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543307)
I'm 95% sure that NCAA-W is the same as NFHS on this. Actually, I just looked at the rulebook. I'm 100% sure. :) No basket, no free throws for NCAA-W.

No basket, no free throws??? Are we talking about the orginal post at the top if the ball is released prior to the horn sounding and B1 fouls A1 on the shot attempt???

Scrapper1 Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IREFU2 (Post 543498)
No basket, no free throws??? Are we talking about the orginal post at the top if the ball is released prior to the horn sounding and B1 fouls A1 on the shot attempt???

Not the same play. I was responding to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 543289)
Lets change this up just a bit.

The score is tied. With 1 second left on the clock in the 4th quarter. On a layup attempt, after the release, but before A1 returns to the floor, A1 contacts B1 who has established legal defensive position. The shot bounces on the rim a bit and then A1 's shot goes in the basket after the horn sounds. Ruling?


IREFU2 Thu Oct 16, 2008 08:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543501)
Not the same play. I was responding to this:

Okay, just checking!!!!!

SmokeEater Fri Oct 17, 2008 08:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 543431)
In my game, he walks away from this game with 999 points. It wouldn't be fair to the other record holders to give him an extra-legal way of getting to 1000, for one.

For two (and more importantly); I don't care how many points someone scores, I only care that the game is played by the rules.

I feel this way as well. I'm outta there.
Don't ya think he will be better remembered as the one who fell one point short of 1000 anyway?

Back In The Saddle Fri Oct 17, 2008 09:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 543687)
I feel this way as well. I'm outta there.
Don't ya think he will be better remembered as the one who fell one point short of 1000 anyway?

I'd rather be known as the guy who scored 999 legitimately than the guy who scored 1,000, but it was "fixed".

Raymond Fri Oct 17, 2008 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 543694)
I'd rather be known as the guy who scored 999 legitimately than the guy who scored 1,000, but it was "fixed".


Sorta like Strahan's sack record.

Scrapper1 Fri Oct 17, 2008 09:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle (Post 543694)
I'd rather be known as the guy who scored 999 legitimately than the guy who scored 1,000, but it was "fixed".

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 543700)
Sorta like Strahan's sack record.

Or the female basketball player who scored her record-breaking points in a boot against a team that agreed not to play defense and allow her to score. I don't remember who that was, but I always felt that was pretty lame. I understand it, I just personally don't like it. Maybe if I was the one who was going for the record I'd feel differently; I don't know.

Back In The Saddle Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543702)
Or the female basketball player who scored her record-breaking points in a boot against a team that agreed not to play defense and allow her to score. I don't remember who that was, but I always felt that was pretty lame. I understand it, I just personally don't like it. Maybe if I was the one who was going for the record I'd feel differently; I don't know.

My point exactly. For the most part, all we remember is that "the fix was in" when she broke the record. That one cheap basket pretty much negates any sense of wonder or admiration for all the legitimate ones that came before.

BillyMac Fri Oct 17, 2008 08:00pm

It Was Nykesha Sales (University of Connecticut)...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 543702)
Or the female basketball player who scored her record-breaking points in a boot against a team that agreed not to play defense and allow her to score. I don't remember who that was, but I always felt that was pretty lame. I understand it, I just personally don't like it. Maybe if I was the one who was going for the record I'd feel differently; I don't know.

February 21, 1998--College hoop star Nykesha Sales enters her last home game of her senior season 28 Points short of the University of Connecticut (UConn) women's scoring record. She scores 27 points in the first 30 minutes. But with 9.48 remaining, Sales crashes to the floor, with a ruptured Achilles tendon. Her college career is over 1 point shy of the record.

Or was it? Three days later, Sales was back on the court (in a cast) against the Villanova Wildcats. UConn coach Geno Auriemma had arranged with Villanova's coach to let Sales score an uncontested layup at the game's beginning, giving her the record. Villanova was then allowed to score a basket to even the score.

Auriemma checked with UConn officials, the Big East (UConn's league), and with the previous record holder, Kerry Bascom-Poliquim. Because they all approved of letting Sales score the basket, Auriemma decided to give Sales the record. Because Villanova was allowed a free basket, he said, it also didn't affect the outcome of the game.

Sales's gift basket is not the first of its kind in sports. There have been many instances where athletes nearing records are given special treatment. Here are some other examples from sports history where players were given special treatment to attain certain records or goals:

September 1968--Yankee slugger Mickey Mantle came to bat, mired in a four week homerless slump. The end of Mantle's final baseball season was approaching, and he needed just one home ran to move into third place on the all-time, list. Mantle belted a shot into the upper deck off Tigers pitcher Denny McLain. McLain later admitted he threw Mantle an easy pitch.

April 1994--San Antonio Spurs center David Robinson needed to score more than 70 against the Los Angeles Clippers to capture the National Basketball Association scoring title. Spurs coach John Lucas instructed Robinson's teammates to foul the Clippers to stop the game clock. That gave Robinson more time to score. He finished with 71 points and won the scoring title.

October 1997--Sixty-nine-year-old Gordie Howe skated for 47 seconds in an International Hockey League game so that he could become the only player to play professional hockey in each of six decades. Howe, didn't even touch the puck once. Howe's actual playing career had ended 18 years earlier, in 1980.


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