official mistake
 

the official informs the players along the free-throw lane that two free-throw's shall be awarded when a one and one bonus should have been attempted.on the attempted of the first shot,all players remain inactive except A2 who rebounds the ball and scores. the official is informed that he miss-informed the players , it should have been one and one. what happens at that point and does the basket count...:eek:

No basket. The ball is awarded to the team with the AP arrow. (8.6.1)

It seems that no official blew the ball dead prior to the scoring of the goal as instructed in the case book play. Without that happening, I don't see how the basket can be cancelled.

I did one better. I deleted the e' thing.

Very well, then. :)

Is the reason that this is not a correctable error because only one player went after the rebound?

What if the OP said that both A2 and B2 went for the rebound and B2 got it and scored and a)one official blew his whistle because two shots had been awarded or b)no official blows the whistle to stop play until the desk signals that there is a problem prior to B putting the ball in play?

The OP and the case play have the same official's mistake. Neither play addresses blowing the whistle. The ruling addresses blowing the whistle. Whether it's blown before or after a player rebounds and shoots the ball, the ruling and principle are the same.

The case play clearly says B is placed at an disadvantage if A is allowed to keep the ball simply because he rebounded. Yet, you say he can keep the ball and score with it?

The rule reference at the end of the case play is 2-3. Does that tell you anything?

Read the case play and you may better understand it.

I read it which sparked the question/confusion.

I also read 2.10.1 B.

Does 8.6.1 deal with an immediate known error while 2.10.1 deals with an error that is not immediately discovered?

8.6.1 deals with an official's mistake.

2.10.1b deals with a correctable error of not awarding a merited FT.

The original post is not a correctable error because a unmerited FT was not awarded, as the second FT was never shot. The officlal gave the wrong info to both teams. To allow A2 to keep the ball because he rebounded it would unfair to B. Further, allowing A to keep the basket, which is what NVRef suggested, would be even more unfair.

Nothing in 2-10 or 2.10 has anything to do with this play. It's a completely different sitch from a rule standpoint.

I never said that it was fair, Tony. I just said that BY RULE the player has scored a legal goal, and that there is no rules support for cancelling that.

This is similar to the discussion that we had last year about the FT shooter losing the ball and then stepping into the lane to chase after it BEFORE an official sounded a whistle. Even you said that was a violation on the shooter BY RULE. Here is a link to that thread:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=30914

Of course, that debate is now moot due to the new part b of 9.1.1.

PS Please note that I did not suggest that Team A be allowed to keep the basket. ;)

Let me see...no,....nothing there....no......nope. Nowhere did I say that you said it was fair. I simply made my own observation.


No, he has not scored a legal goal. The ball is dead when he rebounds it. It makes no difference whether he shoots it, double dribbles it, or throws it OOB. The case play is clear, at least to most eveyone else. There's nothing magical about shooting a dead ball.

Wrong again, Tutts. This is a live ball situation. The whistle is required to kill the play.

The OP is a dead ball sitaution.

Of course, that debate is now moot due to the new part b of 9.1.1.

You didn't? :confused:

Then, what does this suggest?

"Without that happening, I don't see how the basket can be cancelled."

Make up your mind.

Really??? What makes it dead?--The official incorrectly saying two shots? I don't think so. It was supposed to be 1-and-1 and the ball was properly made live during the FT and remains live on the miss. I disagree 100% with your assertion that the ball is dead at this time.

Yep, the case play definitely is clear, "Play should be whistled dead immediately..." The ball clearly isn't already dead. It needs to be whistled dead.

I was simply...

http://clipart.coolclips.com/AGifm/t...s_wb024738.gif

and you...
http://www.manysmileys.com/styles/common/spacer.gif
http://www.manysmileys.com/styles/common/spacer.gif
http://www.clipartof.com/images/emot...39_fishing.gif


This play is analogous to our previous discussion of that FT violation and my position is exactly the same as it was in there. BY RULE this is a legal goal and there is nothing in the book that permits the official to cancel the score after it has happened. However, a good official will bend the rules in this situation. ;)

6-7-2a:

The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.



If the official says there will be another free throw, right or wrong, there will be another free throw until the official says otherwise.

We have had this conversation before.

Do you really believe that? :confused:

So when it should be 1 and 1, but the official says, "2 shots" and then the shooter misses the first, what are you going to do if A2, B2, A4, and B5 all attempt to rebound and A4 gets the ball and scores?

Are you going to follow the casebook play and allow play to continue as normal or are you going to rule that the goal doesn't count because the ball was dead due to the official wrongly saying, "2 shots?" :eek:

I will do my best to follow the casebook play:
If all players on both teams go for the rebound, giving each team "equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound," then play should continue.
However, if even one player on one side or the other even hesitates before going for the rebound, then "the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage," and the play should be whistled dead as quickly as possible.
But even if somebody scores before the whistle, it doesn't count because the ball was already dead because:

"The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw."

From the NCAA:

Ball in Play When Free Throw is Missed
A.R. 184. The official informs the players along the free throw lane that two free throws shall be awarded when a one-and-one bonus is in effect.
(1) While all other players remain inactive, A2 rebounds the ball and successfully scores a goal. The official discovers that he or she misinformed the players; or
(2) B2 rebounds the ball and passes it to the official, who is positioned out of bounds. The official discovers that he or she misinformed the players.

RULING: The official’s misinformation to the players caused the inactivity. As a result, in both (1) and (2), the ball shall be put in play with the use of the alternating-possession arrow. In (1), A2’s goal shall not count. A1 did attempt his or her merited free throw, so there is no error to correct. When any time has elapsed off the game clock and the official has knowledge of this time, he or she shall rectify the situation.(Rule 8-5, 4-53.2.d and 5-11.1)

BadNews,
Thanks for furnishing the NCAA ruling. I happen to agree with it.

Now if we could get the NFHS to adopt the same, then we could justify cancelling the goal without a whistle.

I submit that the official killing the play is a mental event, like the granting of the timeout requested by the airborne player, and takes place instantly upon realization of the circumstances, not when the air is put into the whistle.
How about that?

All I know is that you're already in a world of hurt by informing the players wrong information in a FT situation and one team is going to have to burn an arrow but now you're going to allow one team to take advantage of that mistake and score an uncontested two points and let it stand? :eek:

Not sure where a "world of hurt" starts and ends, but let's put it this way. You give wrong information and cause a team to burn an arrow, nobody will remember it tomorrow. If your mistake results in an uncontested basket, it is likely to be remembered for a loooong time.

Nice try, but that's the way it works in soccer, not basketball. ;)

The NFHS basketball rules very clearly spell out how the ball becomes dead in 6-7. One of those items is "...An official's whistle is blown."

It doesn't say that the official decides to sound the whistle.

Sorry, try again. :(

I agree with Nevada, by rule, it's a tough sell to cancel the basket.
In practice, it would be a tougher sell (to my assigners) to let it stand.
In practice, I'm blowing my whistle when the ball is in the air off the rim; or, at the latest, as soon as a player has the ball and is making a move.

So, as I understand it, it is conceivable that we may one day read in a Nevada newspaper:

"The winning basket was allowed to score when the official sneezed, causing him to be a split second late whistling the play dead."