Clock reads 0:00
 

Had a situation on Sunday I was uncertain of at a men's league game at the local rec center (which surprisingly was enjoyable, good group of guys). Anyways, in the final seconds of the first half Team A makes a basket and Team B quickly calls timeout. Both my partner and I whistle for the timeout and look up at the clock to see 0:00 (without the buzzer sounding). Unfortunately, the scoreboard at the rec center does not display tenths of a second in the fleeting moments of the final minute, however, the scoreboard module does. The time on the module reads 0:00.5.

I don't quite know how to interpret the note in 5-2-5. Does that mean that if the clock reads 0:00, the period is complete? Or does that mean a player may gain control of the ball and try for a field goal as long as their release is completed before the buzzer sounds? My intuition is that the period is completed once the clock reads 0:00 but I'm, honestly, uncertain. Unfortunately the 2008-2009 casebook does not address this situation. This probably is because the clocks are suppose to display tenths of a second.

Thanks Gentleman!

-Josh

The period is not complete until you have a horn regardless of 0:00 on the clock...unfortunately without 10ths of a second on the clock you are left to your judgement to determine if they can get the shot off...just like the old days...

Agreed.

Thanks gentleman. Unfortunately my memory is about as long as {insert witty commenter here}. I couldn't remember how it used to be done. :rolleyes:

-Josh

Except that he does have the 10th's on the control module and does know that there are 0.5 seconds remaining....enough time to get off a catch-n-shoot.

NFHS 5-6-2: "ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

NCAA 5-7-2: "Art. 2. Each period shall end when the red light or LED lights has become activated. When the light fails to operate or is not visible, each period shall end with the sounding of the game-clock horn.
a. In games when the red light is not present, the game-clock horn shall terminate players’ activity."

I could tell you a dreadful and boring story about how I own this rule, but I'll spare you. Now you own it too. :)

Are you suggesting that we use the information from the control module to enforce the 3/10's rule, even if it's NOT displayed on the game clock?

Why wouldn't you? If you have definite knowledge based on the control module as to how much time is actually left, you can certainly use that to determine if a catch and shoot scenario is possible. Are you saying that if you saw 0.2 seconds on the control module, you would still allow a catch and shoot?

Well if you read 5-2-5 it says the 3/10ths rule does not apply if the scoreboard does not display 10ths of a second so your point above moot....that said it is an interesting point and if I knew that there were 2/10ths I would probably not allow a catch and shoot (and would hope that the operator is on point and starts the clock on time so I get a horn!), but according to the rule I should not even consider it....which is a good reason to not even look at the module if it is not on the board, don't tempt yourself with knowledge you shouldn't have!

Already? :eek: :D

I'm pretty sure that the intent of the stated rule was for scoreboards which have control modules that also don't display 10th of a second. Using common sense, if the control module DOES show 10ths of seconds, why wouldn't you use that information? You certainly can use that information to determine whether a catch and shoot is possible. If you don't use that information, then you are not using good common sense.

I would love to hear a story :p

I've actually officiated a game in which the clock operator stopped the clock (on a whistle) at the exact same time as the clock expired. This situation resulted in 0:00.0 on the clock without a horn. In fact we were astonished that when we "started" the clock on the touch (after the in-bounds) the horn did not sound. Freak accident but it's possible, I guess. Does that mean we should still be playing since we didn't hear the horn? Just kidding guys, but it really did happen.

-Josh

Does this answer your question?

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with Team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but the signal has not sounded. RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the signal sounds.

The rule as worded, though, does not guarantee that a catch-and-shoot can be done in exactly 0.3 seconds. That's a minimum, isn't it? If you have a slow shooter, 0.5 might not be enough time to get a shot off.

They did play on in Josh's situation. However, when play started the horn never did end up sounding. So he was asking, tongue-in-cheek, if that means the game should still be playing now. Not if they should have continued playing the game.

Like I said I would probably use it, but what happens if you have an operator who is a hair slow in getting the clock started and you are blowing your whistle before the horn goes off? You would be stuck justifying a rule that technically doesn't exist in the situation given. The 3/10ths rule just gives us an automatic out when we have it available, but does that mean that it is absolutely without a doubt impossible to catch and shoot in 3/10ths or less?

By rule, yes...

By a rule that states within itself that it does not apply if there are no 10ths indicated on the clock...so in the situation given the answer is "by rule, no"...just playing devil's advocate here, I actually wonder why they even bother putting that statement in 5-2-5 about the rule not applying if there are no 10ths of a second given on the clock. If they are not 10ths shown on the board then you would normally assume that the officials have no way to know how many 10ths are left anyways (which turns out to not be true in this case w/ the control module) which makes a rule covering what you can do in 3/10ths or less pointless!

The one out you could have is that 5-2-5 states that it does not apply if the "clock" does not display 10ths of a second...it doesn't say anything about the "scoreboard" having to display the 10ths...in the original situation since the module shows 10ths, maybe that is enough for you to be allowed to use it...

The reason the rule exists is because a study was done and it showed that it's not possible for a player to catch and get off a shot in .3 seconds or less. So therefore, yes, it is impossible for it to happen. And so if you have a clock that doesn't show 10ths on the scoreboard, but does show 10ths on the console, if you see that there are .3 seconds or less, you cannot allow a catch and shoot whether the clock operator starts the clock late or not. If someone attemoted a catch and shoot in that situation, you would immediately signal no shot and blow the whistle to end the quarter if the clock operator is late starting the clock. If there are more than .3 seconds, you have to use your best judgment whether a shot gets off before the expiration of time.

It might be "common sense", but it's wrong. The consoles had 1/10s before the scoreboards did (or, at least there were plenty of places that had such consoles without having the corresponding scoreboard).

Good coaches would ask about the "console time" in the last second, or so (socreboard shows 0:00), to determine if they had time to pass and shoot (console indicates, say, 0:00.9) or just catch and shoot (console indicates 0:00.4) after a throw-in.

The rule about "tap only" applies only if the scoreboard shows 1/10s -- it doesn't matter what the console shows.

This Sunday, obviously the horn sounded because there was, in fact, a half second left but I have had the aforementioned situation also occur in the past. We were unsure of the correct ruling so we discussed it with each other then conveyed our decision to the teams. Like I said before, these were a good bunch of guys so there was no gripping or complaints. Thanks for all the thoughts gentleman

-Josh

Would be clearer if 5-2-5 substituted "scoreboard" for "clock"...by saying "clock" you leave open just such a situation where the clock module shows the 10ths but the scoreboard does not....

So you're saying if the home team is ahead by 1 point with .2 seconds on the console (no tenths on the scoreboard, but you know there are only .2 seconds on the console) and the visiting team has a throw-in with a catch and shoot and the timer is a fraction of a second late in starting the clock, and the shot goes in, you would count the basket?

Then how would anybody know how many 10th's of a second remained? :confused:

The way the rule is written it must be addressing venues where the modules shows 10th's but the scoreboard doesn't.

You've never seen a scoreboard that doesn't show 10ths and neither does the console? That's why no one would know how many tenths are left and therefore why you couldn't know if there was .3 seconds or not - therefore the rule.

I don't see how you could come to the conclusion in your second sentence. It just makes no sense whatsoever to me that if you know there are .2 seconds left based on the console, you wouldn't use that information.

I think his/her last sentence is in reference to the way the rule is written which is the point I was trying to make earlier. What is the only situation that could exist where you would need to make the statement "rule does not apply if the clock does not display 10ths of a second"?

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) Scoreboard shows 10ths - we're good there
2) Neither scoreboard nor consold shows 10ths - above quote is irrelevant b/c you have no way to know how many 10ths remain
3) Scoreboard does not show 10th's, but console does - this is the only time you could possibly apply the above quote where it would make any sense at all.

So it is one of two conclusions for me....either the fed put in a statement that is completely irrelevant and has no meaning whatsoever, or it was meant to apply in a situation just like this one.

Absolutely. It doesn't say scoreboard, it says clock.

Rule 6-2 When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and 3/10 (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, no field goal may be scored by a try for goal. In this situation a tap could score.
NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

The "clock" is actually in the box on the table. The scoreboard is just one of possibly many displays showing how much time is on the clock. The display on the control module is another such display. The rule doesn't specify where the 10ths need to be displayed...just that they are displayed. If any display shows 10ths, then the 10ths are displayed and are to be used.

Additionally, the note about "not displaing tenths" exists simply to say that the 3/10ths rule doesn't apply when the official can't know the precise amount of time remaining....it is not intended to require that all displays show the precise information.

I could buy that interpretation, however, I think the statement is completely irrelevant then. Doesn't it go without saying that if there is no idea how many 10ths are left then you can't apply a rule that is based on 10ths of a second?

Camron,
You are failing to follow the sound advice of "always listen to Bob!" ;)

The tenths need to be on the visible game clock, which is the one that can be seen by the players during the game. The console at the table doesn't meet that requirement.

According to 1-15 your official clock has to be a visible game clock.

I could go with that interp...

IF we make sure that both teams also know how much time is left on the clock. IF only the officials are privy to that information, it's unfair to the teams to use it.

OK, so now I have to get together with my partners and see if they had any information to give about the time on the clock. My partners say .4, the clock operator looks down, starts leaning on his buzzer to alert us to the fact that his clock says .2 Now what?

Where did your partners get their information?

Huh? :confused:

BTW, I'm with Camron.

A school buys a new console that has tenths but the scoreboard doesn't. The scoreboard shows 0:00 but the horn hasn't sounded. The console shows .2 seconds remaining. Even though you have definite knowledge that .2 remains, you're going to ignore that and guess whether a successful shot is good or not, rather than immediately waving it off.

There's no way you're going to make me believe you're going to count the basket when you know there's .2 left. That's just plain dumb.

I'm for all this, also, but as BITS suggested above, we should certainly notify the coaches of the .2, agreed?

I would hope so. I'm quite sure there's going to be some discussion since the clock says 0:00.

That's exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to judge whether or not the try is released prior to the horn. I'm going to handle this play in the same way that we did before the .3 rule came into NFHS play.

Camron, check out 2-4-2. ;)

Huh :confused::confused::confused:

Yeah, I've seen plenty of them. Which means no one knows how many 10th's of a second are left which means the rule does apply at those venues.

What to do if you don't have a tiemout before the last second play, and therefore no opportunity to go to the table to check the 10ths left on the console? Are you going to make a point to walk over to the table to check the console? Or are you saying you will use the 10ths on the console only if you have an opportunity to check, ie a timeout?

The rule only applies if the clock is stopped -- so there's always an opportunity to check (before the FT, or before the throw in)

Right, but what if you have a throw in along the endline and there is no official near the table. Will you hold the throw-in and have an official walk over to the table and check the console? If we are going to do that then I would think we better have a clear interpretation of whether or not we are allowed to use the information by rule....from the back and forth here it does not seem clear to me...

One thing I am taking from this thread is that I am going to be sure to pre-game this with my partners and come to a consensus as to how we are going to interpret this, whereas in the past I'm not sure it would have come up...although I can't remember the last time I called a game where the clock didn't have 10ths of a second so whole thing is probably irrelevant...want to bet me that my first game this year is in a gym with no 10ths?:D

Wouldn't this be perfect for MTD, Sr to send to the NFHS for an interp?

Good luck explaining that over legalistic ruling to your assigner and state association. That just ain't smart and not supported by rule. You have the game timing device and definite knowledge as to how much time is ion the clock. Gotta be smarter than that. Otherwise, you look like http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/stooges.gif.

Have at it, fellas. I've added my $.02.

Nevada, I'm not sure, but are you agreeing with Camron? 2-4-2 simply states the officials designate the "official <B>timepiece</B>" and official timer prior to the game. I would think the timepiece is the piece of equipment the timer controls during the game. In almost all gyms I've been in, the timer doesn't sit up on the wall, controlling the timepiece on the wall, but rather at the table, controlling the timepiece that sits there. The thing on the wall is simply a display, which happens to be attached to the official timepiece. In the rules, I believe it is called the visible game clock, not the official timepiece.

I've been in gyms where on one side of the gym the scoreboard/clock is new and shows tenths, while the scoreboard/clock on the other side is the old one, and does not show tenths. So, it is possible to have tenths information one place, and not another. Having it at the table, on the console (yet another display connected to the official timepiece) is just another example of that. Sure, it makes our job a little harder, but I don't see how we cannot use that display to determine things such as time has expired, or whether a shot can be attempted.

• Rule 6-2 When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and 3/10 (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, no field goal may be scored by a try for goal. In this situation a tap could score. [/FONT]
• NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

So what is the purpose of the note in the rule? Can someone please give an example of when we would have knowledge that less than 3/10 of a second remained but this rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

It all hinges on the FED's definition of "clock" -- does it mean "what's on the wall" or "what's on the table"? (or if "either" show 1/10, then use the rule)

Can you give me an example of how we would definitely know there are less than 3/10 remaining, but there are no displays giving us that information?

If you have the clock stop showing 0:00, no horn, and continue to play; you're going to have at least one coach wonder why. You won't need to make it a point to go to the table, your presence will be required.

That is my point. What is the purpose of the note?

If we don't have any knowledge of a specific number of tenths left, then we go back to a straight judgement call as to whether the shot left the shooter's hand before the horn. The rule effectively takes away that judgement on a shot if we definitely know there are only 2/10's left.

I'm still trying to resolve this. Why bother saying "the rule doesn't apply when...." when unless there is "knowledge" but the committee doesn't want us using that knowledge. The only time this might be a possibility is the OP; therefore it seems logical that the caveat must apply to the OP, therefore putting officials' judgment back into the play.

However, I can't imagine the committee wanting us to ignore definitive information when ignoring it could adversely impact the game (slow finger for the home clock keeper).

Good point...like I have said I would probably use the information, I just would like the interp to be a little more clear...it still bugs me that there is no reason for that comment to be in the rule if this is the interp we are supposd to use..

Agreed.

But doesn't that statement in the rule go without saying? If it isn't on the board and isn't on the console, isn't anywhere, then how do you know if there is 2/10ths, 9/10ths whatever? You obviously have to use your judgement as to whether he/she got the shot off...

I think the question is whether the display on the console counts as "definitive information", and we are therefore allowed to use it, even if it does not show on any of the visible game clocks and not visible to the players. I'm leaning towards saying yes it does.

If the note wasn't in the rulebook, you'd be having a bunch of people up in arms asking "but what if the clock doesn't display 10ths of seconds????". It fills in that blank. It just serves to cover all the bases. This is exactly the kind of thing a lot of people complain about wanting for other rules - because they don't cover all the possibilities. And so here's a case where the rule does cover it all and still people complain. :rolleyes:

Common sense must prevail - if the clock (scoreboard OR console) shows .3 or less, you cannot allow a catch and shoot. It's simple.

The rule is easy to interpret. The note is causing the problem. The note should reference a console that display 10th's when the scoreboard doesn't.

Just another example of a poorly written rule and a rule that needs a case play added.

No, it doesn't cover all bases. It doesn't specifically cover the console/scoreboard discrepency. If it covered all bases and was clearly written we wouldn't be having this debate.

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

I think the reason I am questioning it is the administration. Maybe I have just never seen this situation before, but I would imagine if I was going to use it that I would go to the table see the time left on the console, and then notify the table and both coaches what we could/couldn't have based on the time remaining....I think that administration sounds reasonable, like I said I have just never seen it/used it/heard of it used before..

I never gave my opinion one way or another on the play itself. I'm questioning the wording of the rule. And based on the posts in this thread the wording of the note obviously leaves room for debate. Which means you could have 3 officials on a court who have 3 different opinions on the situation.

You said the rule covers all bases. Well that'a a blatantly ridiculous statement b/c I gave you a black & white example of a base it doesn't carry.

Try reading more, ranting less. ;)

The only way your statement would hold any water is if you believe that the word 'clock' corresponds only to the scoreboard. Several people have provided arguments that seem to clearly define the clock as corresponding to the scoreboard and/or the console.

You also didn't answer any of my questions. If you would allow a catch and shoot when you know absolutely that there's .3 seconds or less on the clock, then you are breaking a rule that is very clearly written.

The note is there to cover the case where neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10th of seconds. All bases are covered.

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

Now to answer your question. If I were the crew chief it would be discussed with my crew. And then it would be discussed with the table personnel. And then I would pull both coaches together and let them know how we would handle it. And all this would happen before the opening tip because if I didn't know about the clock ahead of time I would surely realize it once we got to the last minute of warm-ups. And based on what I just typed I'll let your common sense figure out what my crew would do. :cool:

I would tell that .2 was the time left, but I would not tell that a catch and shoot would not be allowed. It is up to us to pass along information relevant to a particular game situation. It is up to the coach to know the rules.

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

BNR - I'm not trying to be a pain, but what rule or case are you using that is presenting any type of confusion as to whether the display on the console <B>cannot</B> be used?

For this one situation, sure....but what about all the other equally simple situational variations that can be conceived....how many times have you seen people here refuse to belive something because the exact same case (including the phase of the moon) was not precisely spelled out for them in the rule book? The fact is that some people need (or at least think they need) the entire set of possible situations to be explcitly defined where many are able to take a relatively simple framework, a basic understanding of the game itself, and common sense and correctly interpolate a ruling for nearly any situation that may occur. Neither are wrong, but the latter results in a concise and compact set of rules that can be understood (as apposed to a set of thousands of plays to memorize).

I don't know, this doesn't make sense.

If neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10ths, then this rule cannot apply. The note is not needed, as there is no way to determine the precise time left to the 10ths.

Unless the note is there to prevent officials from doing what they shouldn't do anyway; make an assumption of how much time remains.

I look at it exactly the opposite way. If they didn't have the note in there, just as many people would complain about "what if the scoreboard and console don't display 10ths of seconds?". Think about it. If the note wasn't there, it would imply, if you read the rule as is, that somehow you need to be able to know if there's .3 seconds or less on the clock - regardless of what kind of displays are available. Having the note allows you to cover that case.

My first evidence is that several posters in this forum were not clear as to whether or not you should use the console.

Secondly, many refs, experienced and not experienced, may not even realize that it's even an option.

Thirdly, the language in the rule could be interpreted by a reasonably intelligent person to mean that you only use 10th's if it's seen on the scoreboard.

Sometimes we in the forum fail to realize we are the minority when it comes to officiating. Most officials don't spend as much time talking about the craft as we do. We have case plays for situations that are far less important and complex as this. So IMVHO this is something that should be addressed in the Case Book. No where else in the rule book (as far as I know) is it addressed that the clock and console could reflect different times. But now we are to assume that every official who wants on the court will instinctively realize what to do in this situation.

Then why do we have a Case Book? Should the criteria for Case Book submission be "only include something if the majority of the Official Forum on officiating.com don't understand the rule"? There are many case plays that for me aren't needed because I fully understand those rules as written. Should those case plays be deleted since I already understand them?

Maybe that's part of the confusion - the clock and console don't show "different times", they show exactly the same time; it's just each display shows a different degree of accuracy.

I believe the Case Book plays are included because there is enough "real world" experience with confusion on how the rule(s) should be interpreted. In this play, even though there may be a little confusion as we discuss it, how many times do you think it has actually come up? Has this exact situation ever come up in a game you've officiated? I know it never has in my many years of officiating. So I'm sure they take into account how many times a particular rule or situation causes confusion, vs. covering all the possible scenerios.

I've had it occur a small number of times (maybe once every few years).....Whistle sounds, scoreboard shows 0:00, no horn...the next thing I do is to confirm with the timer that the auto-horn was enabled. I've had timers respond with...."Yes...and there are 0.4 seconds left on the clock." Great, and everyone knows how much time is left.

The likelihood of this happening is primarily dependant on a gym in your area having a board that doesn't show 10ths while the console does. Rarely do they mismatch. Only then do the odds of hitting the situation really come into play.

The fact that you say they are exactly the same and yet different at the same time speaks to the potential for confusion. :)

And to answer Camron's question, yes I have seen a few gyms with equipment like this. I'll call Mary and see what she has to say. :D

butch
 

well it sounds that you had it well managed and if coaches and you and your partner agreed it is a done deal...ant sport that has a clock,the period or game is over.

Well, they are saying the same thing; you just have to know how to listen to what they're saying. ;) On most clocks that do not display tenths, you'll notice that when you set it at, say, 8:00, then turn it on, it immediately clicks down to 7:59. That doesn't mean that second went by instantaneously, but rather it is now 7:59.9, 7:59.8, 7:59.7, etc., until it gets to 7:59.0, then it changes to 7:58 when the time is 7:58.9, and so on. That is why you can have a clock show 0:00, but in reality there could be 0:00.5, 0:00.4, etc. left. The horn goes off when the time actually gets to 0:00.0. That's why the rule was put in that the horn determines the end of the period, not the clock showing 0:00. Both displays show the correct time; one just shows it in whole numbers while the other shows tenths.

Of course, the only time we need to accurate down to the tenths of a second is in a last-second shot situation, with the clock stopped, such as we are discussing. That's why clocks don't even bother displying tenths until it drops under a minute. Accuracy to the second is important most of the time, accuracy to the tenth is only important some of the time.

Now, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why we <B>cannot</B> use the display on the console, hence I don't see much confusion to this discussion.

If she doesn't answer right away, leave a message. I'm 99.873% sure she might not call you back. (Just trying to be as accurate as possible.) :D

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't. I just think (my personal opinion) there needs to be a case play that makes everyone aware. That's all.

Even though its clear that I'm in favor of using the console, I have thought of one opposing point.....

Lag time.

It's safe to say that early stoppage is exceedingly rare. However, delayed stoppage does happen....and is fairly common when we're talking about parts of a second. Without having tenths on the display, no official will, when the time is under 1 second, be able to confirm that the clock actually stopped on the whistle or what time should be on the clock.

Given that, an argument could be made that the precision of the time on console can't be confirmed....that even though it may say 0.2 seconds, it should have stopped at 0.6. If that is taken into account, the claim could be made that the human factor should exist throughout....that the re-starting of the clock and the release of the shot should all be based on human factors (with the inherent lags and judgment) rather than the specific time shown on the console.

Not to be pedantic (okay, entirely to be pedantic)...

The issue is not one of accuracy, it's one of resolution. The scoreboard that doesn't display tenths is still accurate. It merely lacks the necessary resolution to display the time down to tenths of a second.

That sounds like a different issue, Camron. Regardles of how the clock gets to the time it is stopped on, it is what it is at that point, so if it says .2 then how could you argue that it shouldn't be .2? I would still say that you have to go with what it says as far as allowing a catch and shoot or not.

There is no definitive knowledge that the time should not be, in this case, 0.2 seconds. An official should never change the time in this case.

Not to add fuel to the flames but the reaction time of the clock operator to stop the clock on the whistle is not the same as the reaction time of the clock operator starting it with a visual cue. But we won't get into that because it really doesn't matter, it's so minute

-Josh

Cool - can you write that all out so it can put into a case play? ;)

While I don't disagree with your premise of a potential problem, I don't see how that prevents us from using the display, by rule. Wouldn't we have that same problem in the rare case where the clock and displays don't work, and we are going by the timer using a stopwatch at the table?

Could you perhaps elaborate on this point?

It's not a technical/rule problem...just a philosophical problem.

And yes, we'd have the same problem even if just the displays didn't work.

The point is that if there is "known" but unquatifiable imprecision in stopping the clock, that the distinction of 0.3 is not a reasonable restriction....the same known but unquantifiable imprecision should carry through to the buzzer leaving the officials to judge based on the buzzer alone.

Note that I've not changed my mind (that i would use the time shown on at least one of the clocks), just playing the DA.

Reality is messy. This same imprecision in getting the clock stopped exists at every clock stoppage the entire game. Our solution to the problem is classically human. We ignore it completely and pretend it doesn't exist. Except on those rare occasions when it is noticeable, and critical enough to somebody that they complain. Then, and only then, do we address it with a rule about what to do to fix just that one little part of the problem.

So in your DA case, Camron, I humbly suggest that unless the problem is noticeable, that it simply be ignored. :)