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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
Agree about the intent. But the wording of the rule, and presumably the intent of the rule makers, don't limit its enforcement to just the Wilt Chamberlain play. Which leaves us with the need to determine where between the corner shot and the Wilt play the ball is enough "over" that it's a violation.

The rule is widely (if not accurately) known. So there's a reasonable chance that on any ball that comes close to passing over the backboard, a coach is going to ask for a call.

On anything EXCEPT the George Mikan play, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the offense. So, in all likelihood, the entire ball will have to pass over the backboard to be a violation. (especially since we are at an angle to the backboard, and far enough away for depth perception to be an issue)

On the George Mikan play (not that I ever expect to see it), I might be more strict.
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
The rule is widely (if not accurately) known. So there's a reasonable chance that on any ball that comes close to passing over the backboard, a coach is going to ask for a call.
I'm all for the coaches asking for that call. It will be a nice change of pace, instead of a steady diet of travel requests. I welcome variety
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 03:24pm
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I've blown this call once, and nothing was said by the "offended" coach. Of course, I believe that was a sophomore game, and those coaches weren't particularly chippy anyway.

You're right, though; obviously the line is somewhere between the two plays. Personally, I put the line a lot closer to the Chamberlain/Mikan play than the shot in the corner. Legitimate shots can be defended normally.

To put it into practice, perhaps I lean towards thinking the entire ball has to be over the back board to qualify.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 03:33pm
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I'm happy to go with the entire ball. That makes my life easier, it's relatively easy to judge, and is probably closer to the intent of the rule than any other option.

It doesn't sound like anybody knows of any official interp on this. Not even after the UCLA game last year?
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Last edited by Back In The Saddle; Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 03:38pm.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle View Post
For those whose books are not readily at hand...

NFHS 7-1-2: ART. 2 . . . The ball is out of bounds:
b. When it passes over a rectangular backboard.

NCAA 7-1-3: Art. 3. The ball shall be out of bounds when any part of the ball passes over the backboard from any direction.
Brushing up on college rule citations for any particular reason, BITS???
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 06:47pm
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Originally Posted by CoachP View Post
Technically, I can stand in the exact corner of the playing court and shoot a three. It does not count then? It HAS to go over the corner, from the back, to fall in.........

Not possible....geometry

(from an post by me in March regarding a shot that went over the top)
Front tip of the rim is 24" from the backboard. Backboard is 6ft wide and 4ft from the baseline, lane is 12ft wide. The point on the baseline that leads over the corner to the very front tip of the rim is 3' outside the lane...and that is just to the front tip....an unmakeable point without crossing clearly over the top. The path to the center of the basket directly over the corner and from the baseline starts 4.5' outside the lane....and that spot is just barely makeable on a lucky day.

So, the line from the corner (25' from the center of the court on the baseline) has plenty of room to clear the edge of the backboard. If it does go over the top, then there is no way it is going to be in line to go in....it's not going to be on a makable path. The path to the basket for any baseline shot (not near the baseline...direclty over it) beyond 10.5 feet from the center of the court is not over the backboard.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 06:50pm.
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 09:34pm
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The front, top, sides, and bottom of the backboard are all in play. The ball cannot pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction. The back of a backboard is out of bounds as well as the supporting structures.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 30, 2008, 09:54pm
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Originally Posted by rainmaker View Post
Brushing up on college rule citations for any particular reason, BITS???
Yep. I'm trying to become an insufferable know-it-all in two major rules sets
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 01, 2008, 06:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Not possible....geometry
hmmm...now I'm gonna have to run to school tonight and take my ball and go stand in the corner.
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 01, 2008, 08:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Side to side, perhaps. If it literally passes over the top of the board in a straight line parallel to the back board, this would be a violation.

If it's going diagonally, it's still moving from the front of the board to the back of the board (or from back to front). The point is that the ball has to be, at one point, physically in the partial plane directly above the glass for it to be a violation. Going between the support structures does not qualify.
We agree.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 01, 2008, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP View Post
hmmm...now I'm gonna have to run to school tonight and take my ball and go stand in the corner.
I've refined my analysis and have created a diagram (to scale)...





Note three areas indicated by red, blue and green markings.
  1. Below the red line, it is not possible for the ball to go into the basket without going over the backboard. Think of the red line as the path of the center of the ball. If the center of the ball is above that line, it can't go in....it will bounce out. If the center of the ball is below that line, it must go over the board (and may still miss).
  2. If the entire ball is above the blue, solid line, the ball has a clear path into the basket without any part of the ball going above any part of the backboard.
  3. Above the green, solid line, the ball has a clear path to the entire basket without any part of the ball going above any part of the backboard.
Not diagramed, but fairly obvious. From the exact corner, there is a path to "most" of the basket that doesn't go above any part of the backboard.

So, a baseline shot (directly over the baseline) can't be legally made from less than 9' from the center of the backboard (3' outside the lane). For the next few feet, the shot can be legally made but some part of the ball will cross over at least part of the backboard. At about 13', there begins to be an entirely clean path directly into the basket. At 25', only the back couple inches of the basket is shielded by the backboard.

Of course, the margin of error is very small near or inside the blue line, but it is possible.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Oct 01, 2008 at 01:11pm.
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 01, 2008, 06:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I've refined my analysis and have created a diagram (to scale)...



Note three areas indicated by red, blue and green markings.
  1. Below the red line, it is not possible for the ball to go into the basket without going over the backboard. Think of the red line as the path of the center of the ball. If the center of the ball is above that line, it can't go in....it will bounce out. If the center of the ball is below that line, it must go over the board (and may still miss).
  2. If the entire ball is above the blue, solid line, the ball has a clear path into the basket without any part of the ball going above any part of the backboard.
  3. Above the green, solid line, the ball has a clear path to the entire basket without any part of the ball going above any part of the backboard.
Not diagrammed, but fairly obvious. From the exact corner, there is a path to "most" of the basket that doesn't go above any part of the backboard.

So, a baseline shot (directly over the baseline) can't be legally made from less than 9' from the center of the backboard (3' outside the lane). For the next few feet, the shot can be legally made but some part of the ball will cross over at least part of the backboard. At about 13', there begins to be an entirely clean path directly into the basket. At 25', only the back couple inches of the basket is shielded by the backboard. Of course, the margin of error is very small near or inside the blue line, but it is possible.
Wow. Thanks for the effort. Confucius supposedly said, "One picture is worth a thousand words". If he said it, he was right. Now I understand what you mean.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 01, 2008, 11:53pm
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Sheez, Camron, you have way, way too much time on your hands!!
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 02, 2008, 08:21am
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Originally Posted by rainmaker View Post
Sheez, Camron, you have way, way too much time on your hands!!
I agree with Jullie or is it Juulie??.....but... you da man!! Nice drawing.
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 02, 2008, 08:29am
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Yikes, heck of drawing is right!

I won't take out my rule book and shove it in a coaches face, ever.....but can you see waving off a basket stating it came over the backboard and when the coach calls a TO to "discuss", you reach into your back pocket and pull out CAMRON's art and say, "OK coach, let's review."
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