Multiple foul?
 

I know a multiple foul is called when 2 players foul a player at the same time. When it's a 2 point shot and the fouls are called and the basket doesn't go in the player gets one shot per foul, for still a 2 shot penalty.
What would be the free throws of a multiple foul that would be called on say a 3 point shot that doesn't go in? and then a multiple foul on a 3 pt shot that does go in? Just wondering! Never seen it happen, for that matter, I've never seen a multiple foul called either! :)

Straight from the summary of penalties:

Multiple Foul:
(a) One free throw for each foul:

(1) No try involved.
(2) Successful or unsuccessful two-point try or tap.
(3) Successful three-point try or tap.

(b) Two free throws for each foul:

(1) Intentional or flagrant foul.
(2) Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.
Plus ball for throw-in if intentional or flagrant.

Not A False Multiple Foul ...
 

Great answer. Seemed to be right on the tip of your tongue. How many multiple fouls have you called recently?

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a few fractions of a second before the other one.

By rule, this doesn't really matter. 4-4-11 uses the phrase "at approximately the same time." Also, in the case of a shooter, the most common time a multiple foul would occur, the first foul would not cause the ball to become dead. :)

Not that I've ever called a multiple....

I've Never Seen The Loch Ness Monster Either ...
 

Thanks for the citation. Let me fix my recent post:

For me, it seems that whenever a situation arises where there might be a multiple foul, one foul always occurs a second, or more, before the other one.

I've been doing this for twenty-seven years, never called a multiple foul, never had a partner call a multiple foul, never saw a multiple foul called in a game. I've officiated over 700 high school games, as well as a ton of middle school, travel, recreation games, etc, and I've watched a lot of games both before, and after, my games. Why do you think it is that I've never seen a multiple foul called?

Still irrelevant.....approximately is not confined to a specific time frame.

Not becasue they don't happen but becasue we choose to call only one. I've seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times...even several times in one game. Have I ever called one? No.

"Sorry Coach, too much time between the fouls."?
 

Why not?

And when we chose not to call them, when we see what "technically qualifies as a multiple foul" (your words), what do we tell the coach who wants two shots for his, or her, multiply fouled player?

You know people are itching for the season to start when they want to argue about what to say to a coach who is begging for a multiple foul.

If coach asks for a multiple foul? Are you serious? Billy, in all your 27 years of not calling this, have you ever had a coach ask why?

Hey, Everybody, Look At Me, I'm Calling A Multiple Foul ...
 

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

My opinion:

1) In the beginning, there was the foul.

2) Then, someone asked "what happens if two players foul each other?" Thus begat the double foul.

3) Referee, being human, occasionally messed up the application of the double foul, applying it when the conditions weren't met. Thus begat the false double foul.

4) To "close the loop", the rules makers added a "false multiple foul" to cover the situation where the person who was fouled gets fouled again (after a period of time, but before the ball becomes live).

5) You can't have a "false double foul" without having a definition of a "multiple foul", so that was also added to the book.

IOW, it's there not to be called (in the normal pace of play), but merely so other parts of the book make some sense.

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it. I think, and again, just my opinion, that they just swallow the whistle on the second/simultaneous one b/c it's an easy sell to the offensive coach that defender A1's foul knocked the shooter into defender A2 which caused that foul or something along those lines. However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both. If I'm the coach and you give me some crap explanation, I'm asking you why the second guy gets a free shot on my shooter just because you called the foul on the first guy only.

I mostly referee "sub-V" so these situations don't arise much as the refs and/or coaches aren't as "knowledgeable" of the rules as those more experienced at the V level. So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point? %? Just curious.

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court. :D

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

Silly coaches. You should have asked for a double foul.

I disagree. There are plenty of officials who would know how to handle this, and they'll never call it. Every coach understands you're going to, in most cases, pick one. In this case, I'll go with the harsher foul. In the once-in-a-lifetime instance where both players clobber the shooter, I might go with the multiple foul. Just tell the coach that both fouls had to be addressed. I've never seen this, though, and fouls that hard may also warrant the "X."

And yes, in my world, I'd be emailing my assigner that night so he wouldn't get blind-sided.

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one. :D

Talk about a tough sell...

Depending on the level of play, be prepared for Team A to shoot 8 FTs (lane cleared) as Team Bs coach will most likely have to be stuck for coming unglued as he might not be able to relate to the rule.

Wow, I don't know which of those would be worse to sell.

In that second scenario, unless the shooter hits the floor, B1 is holding a severed arm, B2 is holding a severed arm and B3 is holding a severed leg (or any combo thereof), NO THANKS!!!:D

Nothing. They'll never ask. The only time I can imagine them being interested in two fouls, and the only time I'd call multiple fouls, would be when both are so blatant that they can't be ignored....intentional/flagrant fouls, for example.

Anyone who has reffed more than a few games that says that it hasn't happened in their game either doesn't know the rule or is lying.

And you'd be wrong since the rule doesn't require the same time...only approximately. And "approximately" would cover the period of time that encompasses the entire act of shooting.

That's a good reason. Another is that two fouls did not give any more advantage ot the defense than one alone.

I had this play in a Rec game (8th grade boys) in my first year officiating. Team A was down by 3 points at the end of the game. Its best shooter attempts a 3-point shot as the clock runs out and two defenders foul him at the same time. I called only one foul, the kid missed one of the foul shots and the game ended.

Since it was my first year, I was not certain of the penalty for the multiple foul. Now that I know it, I would probably call the multiple foul. I say "probably" because I have discussed this play with many officials and I am still looking for one to say the "right" call is the multiple foul. They all tell me that no matter what the rule says ("approximately the same time"), I should pick only one player for the foul.

As for why it is not called on more conventional shots (when two defenders foul someone under the basket, for example), I think it is because the penalty is two shots total (one for each foul.) While the rule book call does increase the foul count for the team and both players, only the multiple foul on a 3-point try actually can give a team the chance for any "extra" points for the proper call.

The reason is rule 11-1: Don't be a plumber. ;)

I've had once in my career a false double where I called both fouls.

Shooter goes up for the layup, get whacked on the arm. Tweet. Only problem is that B had roots and A hits B square on the torso. Called that one too.

I'd call it again, especially if the opposing player didn't obtain LGP. This is a particularly more dangerous play than a smack across the arm, as it affects how a person lands after being airborne.

Two defenders fouled the same guy at the same time? I might pass on one of the fouls if the contact was slight. But if both whacked him good - 2 fouls it is!

"Everybody gets so much information that they lose their common sense". (G. Stein)
 

Sounds like a good reason to me, however the pages that contain 11-1 are missing from my NFHS rule book. Is this an NCAA, FIBA, or NBA rule? I bet it's probably in the Common Sense rule book, edited by Thomas Paine.

http://re3.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/25/m1/1997528330

Veteran Doesn't Mean Old ...
 

Are you sure? From your posts, you sound like a veteran, who's seen a lot of "action". Haven't you made at least one, if not several, foul calls where a coach, or player, complains immediately after the call, and gets a technical foul? Depending on which coach, or player, does the complaining, that could be a false double, or a false multiple, foul.

False Double Foul
4.19.9 Situation C: A1 has a breakaway lay-up. B1 commits a hard foul against A1 from behind and is called for an intentional foul. The Team A head coach protests, feeling the foul should have been a flagrant foul and is assessed a technical foul. Ruling: Award A1's goal if successful. A1 shall receive two free throws with the lane spaces cleared. Any Team B player is then awarded two free throws for the technical foul. Team B will be awarded the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorers table.

Billy beat me to it, but I bet you've called lots of false double fouls. A false double foul is simply when opponents foul each other, but not at the same time; and the second one occurs before the clock restarts.

A1 attempts a try and is fouled by B1. A1 completes the shooting motion, returns to the floor, then turns and pushes B1 in the chest. False double.

If I Had Known, I Would Have Given You A Head Start, You Would Have Needed It. ..
 

I didn't know it was a race?

Addendum to Title: And In The End, I Would Have Lost.

http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m2/2116703159

Sorry - you're right. In my head I was thinking "on the same play action". I forgot my black hat going to my NCAA game yesterday. I think I've been officiated-out and I need to take a week off of reading about officiating, thinking about officiating, etc.

Making A List, Checking It Twice ...
 

What did you do without the hat?

I've had two uniform problems in twenty-seven years.

When I first started officiating, I used to carry a bag, with my shoes, socks, T-shirt, whistles, rule book, etc.; in addition to a garment bag, with my shirt, and pants, to keep them neatly pressed (no jacket back then). I arrived at a game site, very far away from home, to discover that I had left the garment bag at home. Back then we were wearing the IAABO gray, with blue trim, shirt, and we had a choice of wearing blue, or black pants. Luckily I had on my blue dress pants that day, so that wasn't a problem. I wore the plain gray T-shirt that was in my bag as a shirt. Boy, was I embarrassed. That was the end of the garment bag, now everything goes into the one bag, folded as neatly as I can.

Another time, I arrived at a game site having forgotten to pack my black and white striped shirt in my bag. Luckily, one of the junior varsity officials was the same size as me and let me borrow his shirt for the night. After that episode, I typed up, and laminated, a checklist. Every time, and I mean every time, I pack my bag, I take out the checklist and mentally check off each item. I hope to avoid any more uniform problems for the rest of my officiating career.