Legal pick?

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a reason you “call out” screens to your teammates.

Peace

I watched the play a few times and from the camera angle I don't see that it is an obvious foul or an obvious no call. I could really be fine with either call and T and C had a better look at it than us. The screener appears to be in a good position as far as timing and distance, but she also appears to lean a little at contact. We all know that the game looks different from the floor tahn it does from the stands. Tough play either way. I don't agree that you call a foul purely for game management, you call what you see. We all know there can be contact without a foul. I think Rut hit it on the head in that there should be a teammate there to call out the screen, especially at that level of basketball.

So, my definitive decsion after watching the tape is, "hell if I know."

[zeedonk]

From my (newer official) perspective, I'm probably calling that and going the other way every time. I understand that these are college players and even at the HS level, I think I'm still making that call. I think I see enough forward movement from A2 combined with the shoulder turn (slight as it may be) to turn the ball over.

I'm not so concerned with the contact (violent, excessive etc) because if she didn't move forward and turn the shoulder, I'm probably not calling it. The argument that she can brace herself for contact holds water with me, but I think I see more than that, or at least A2 operating under the theory of "I'm gonna get hit pretty good, so I'm going to brace hard and give a little back".

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

Games only get out of hand if you do not know how to deal with situations. They do not get out of hand because of one call or non-call. The violence of this play was caused because the defensive player never saw the screen. It was not caused by a slight lean at the time of contact. Actually without the slow motion replay, it was hard to tell how much lean if any at all. Because time and distance was clearly given, the screen was just not vertical and within the screener's space.

What are you going to do if you have a legal play and the violence was the same? How are you going to keep the game from getting out of hand if you have a legal play and the team on defense is still upset? I say this because most situations I have handled with my partners almost never take place based on how much air I put into my whistle.

Peace

[Adam]

Okay, I just saw the replay, and it's an easy call on A2. Looking at the point of contact, her legs are nearly 45 degrees from the floor as she leans into the oncoming player. Bracing for contact does not include a body check.

My first thought was a possible intentional foul; when illegal contact (and this was) gets excessive (this might be), it can be an intentional regardless of "intent."

BTW, I still don't know what exactly "game management" is. Some cite it to justify not calling a technical foul. Others cite it when claiming they never have to call a technical foul. Still others cite it when calling a foul on what should, by rule, be incidental contact. Note again for the record, this play does not qualify as incidental contact, IMO, because A2 was obviously leaning into her and in real speed, it looks like she even used her arms to increase the level of contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

BTW, I still don't know what exactly "game management" is.

Good game management is how you describe your own calls.

Bad game management is how you describe other official's calls.

And game interrupters are how you describe any call that you don't personally agree with.

It's true, it's true.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My first thought was a possible intentional foul; when illegal contact (and this was) gets excessive (this might be), it can be an intentional regardless of "intent."

That would be a perfect example of bad game management.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

That would be a perfect example of bad game management.

Really? I couldn't tell from the camera angle if she extends her arms, or just leans her whole body. If she extends her arms like that on a blind screen, I don't see how you could argue against an intentional. It's well within the rules, IMO.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really? I couldn't tell from the camera angle if she extends her arms, or just leans her whole body. If she extends her arms like that on a blind screen, I don't see how you could argue against an intentional. It's well within the rules, IMO.

I couldn’t be more adamant that you shouldn't call an intentional foul. When I watched it w/o the replays I thought illegal screen because she leaned into her a little bit. Certainly not much and certainly not enough to warrant an intentional. Yes it was a hard foul, but that’s what happens when players get picked off in the backcourt in most instances.

Game management thoughts.

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

Calling the illegal screen as a common foul is the way to go in this instance. No way should it even be considered intentional.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

Game management thoughts.

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

Calling the illegal screen as a common foul is the way to go in this instance. No way should it even be considered intentional.

So, you're saying you don't make a particular call because you're afraid the coach might not like it and be on your case?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

If you're worried about making coaches happy, you're in the wrong business. Who gives a damn if we're questioned about any call that we make? The only worry we should have is to get the call right!

Game management has absolutely NOTHING to do with worrying about how the coaches, players or fans are going to react to a call.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My first thought was a possible intentional foul

Not a chance, IMO.

[JugglingReferee]

I see the body extending from the vertical as well as the arms coming away from the body. At minimum it's a personal foul. Excessive contact enters my mind - no doubt.

[zm1283]

I had almost this same play in a game last year, except the defender (B2 in this situation) ran over the screener (A2). B2 was completely blindsided, but when she turned around they made contact and A2 fell over. Of course everyone was screaming but I let it go.

Edit: As for the video, there is no way it's intentional. It's VERY borderline in my opinion on whether it's even a foul or not. Hard to tell from the video.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

jr- I don't get your comment on Game management?? Sounds to me like you think it is hooplah. Please elaborate on it a little further.

I don't speak for JR, but I think GM is real. However, I see it get tossed out as the reason for either bad calls (calling a foul when none should be called), no calls (on violations, for example) (wait, those are game interrupters, never mind), or ignoring unsporting behavior. It almost seems like it's used as a catch-all excuse for taking the easy way out.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Check it out. Have your speakers on to hear the announcer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9rYa...eature=related

Nope, illegal screen. The screener was leaning towards the defensive person.....