Au contraire, mon ami. The infraction, as I understand it, is not for WEARING a shirt of different number, but for requiring the scorer to change the number in the book after 10 minutes before game time. Since the shirt change was, in fact, reported to the scorer, I wouldn't call it an attempt to deceive the opposing team, but a failure on the part of the scorer to inform the refs. The question then becomes whether it was a legitimate reason to change the shirt in the first place, and whether it thus warrants a technical. Yes, the officials definitely should have been notified, but was that the team's fault or the scorer's? Either way, if you decide it does warrant a "T," the penalty (page 57, Rules Book) is given when the situation occurs. Also, the Casebook seems pretty clear (10.1.2) that once the ball becomes live after this situation, "it is too late to penalize."

I recall a discussion from a while back (a previous incarnation of this site) where it was agreed that the 2-pt lob from behind the arc would be one of the toughest sells to ever have to make.

Both of these situations arose in a high school game.

I've gotten different opinions from the half dozen or so other officials
that I've asked about the first situation.

I had a game in which a player attempted to make a low lob pass; he
released the ball from behind the 3 point arc, and the
ball was batted by a player inside the 3 point arc (at least, I'm pretty
sure the player was inside). Upon the batting of the
ball, it rose perfectly and banked in. Is this a 3 point basket? It
was awarded as such, since it left from behind the arc,
and not a person questioned the call, yet I think it may have been
wrong. I've been told that the touching of the ball has
nothing to do with the awarded point value, regardless of where the
defensive player is located. Yet other refs state that I
have to decide whether the ball was released on a shot or a pass. This
doesn't necessarily make much sense, as a lob pass
(untouched) from the behind the arc would count as a 3 pointer if it
were to go in.

Secondly, in a game that I was not involved in but has been quite the
topic of conversation among officials here, a girl had blood
on her jersey and changed jerseys at halftime. She was NOT directed to
do so by the officials. Her number was thus changed,
and she reported it to the scorekeeper after the halftime break. She
did NOT, however, report the change to any official, and
neither did the scorer. In the fourth quarter, the situation was
brought to the officials' attention when this player committed a foul.
What is the penalty? A technical foul certainly seems correct, since
the change was not reported to the officials, but is it flagrant,
with an ejection, or is it an indirect to the head coach? Any help and
explanation you could offer would be most helpful.

First play. If batted by defense, 3 points. If batted by offense, 2.

Change shirt because of blood. By the book you should have a technical for not reporting the change to an official. By common sense. No T. You have to change the joursey anyway. It was reported to the scorekeeper. My ego isn't so big that I need it reported to me.

Here's my opinion -

#1 - First of all, even if this was a 3 point try, it is where the player's FEET are when the ball is released, not where the ball is released. This means a player can have his feet behind the arc, "fly several feet in the air" and release the ball and it is a 3. Saw it in a freshman game that put it into OT. If this was not a shot -- it was viewed as lob pass by officials -- how can we count it a three? Should count for 2 since ball was tipped into basket within the arc.

#2 - this is a team technical. Player can still enter game after technical is assessed and administered.

I don't believe the second situation is an "ego" situation; it is a rule, and although common sense is a nice thing to use in many situations, it is not of much use here. There is a rule applicable here, and as such, my question remains of how to apply it. I think that although keeping one's ego out of it is admirable, you penalize the other team if you don't enforce the rules correctly.

grussell -

hope my response was clear -- what I meant was it is where feet are when you go into a shooting motion...you can go further in the air and then release it and it is a 3.

In situation #1, if there was ANY possibility of the ball going in on its own, legitimate shot or simply a pass attempt, I believe we have to consider it a shot and count it a 3 even if tipped by the defense. Sounds like the "D" was pretty close by (just inside the arc?), so it might have been tough to tell if the ball clearly could not have gone in. But, if the lob pass was clearly on a low trajectory and then got deflected upward, subsequently going in, you could justify that it was not a legitimate shot and therefore only scores 2 points (see Casebook, 4.39.4A&B). If in doubt,though, I'd call it a shot and give him the 3 pts.

In situation #2, changing the shirt because of blood appears to be legitimate, whether or not the officials told the player to change it. However, the team does have to inform the refs. But...in order to assess a "T," the violation of rule has to be discovered at the time it occurs and penalized before the ball becomes live (see Casebook, 10.1.2). Once play resumes, it is too late to issue a technical for the changed shirt and number. Either way, if you caught it in time, it would be a normal team technical, not a flagrant or ejection.

Situation 1: The fact that the ball was tipped does not change anything. IF it was a try before, it's still a try. If it was not, it's still not. And, it matters not where the player who tipped the ball was located [inside or outside the arc -- I suppose if the player were out-of-bounds it might have some earing, but I don't think that's possible. Now watch, I'll have it happen in my next game http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/smile.gif ].

So, you need to decide whether the initial release was a pass or a try, then rule 2 or three points accordingly.

The reason three points is usually awarded on a "lob pass" that enters the basket is because it's difficult to tell whether it was a (ugly looking) try or a (poor) pass, and the generally accepted philosophy has been to award the try (three points). I'd do the same on this play: If the ball had a chance at the basket without the tip, award three; otherwise award 2.

References: 4.39.4A, 4.39.4B, 5.2.1D

Situation 2: Allow the player to play without penalty. If you thought the change (and lack of reporting) was designed to confuse the other team, you could rule this unsportsmanlike. I'd give the T directly to the coach in this instance.

Reference: 3.3.5B

Jackgil,
No, I wasn't confused at all about whether to award a 3 by where the offensive player's feet are...My question is whether the position of the defensive player and whether it is a pass or shot has anything to do with the value of the basket.

In reply to Todd's post...it is not whether or not the violation is detected "at the time it occurs and penalized before the ball becomes live"; the rule book specifically states "discovered while being violated." This was the case; had the player not been in the game when the infraction was discovered, no penalty is administered. But the book does not talk about live/dead ball in this situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker on 02-17-2000 12:13 PM
Au contraire, mon ami. The infraction, as I understand it, is not for WEARING a shirt of different number, but for requiring the scorer to change the number in the book after 10 minutes before game time. Since the shirt change was, in fact, reported to the scorer, I wouldn't call it an attempt to deceive the opposing team, but a failure on the part of the scorer to inform the refs. The question then becomes whether it was a legitimate reason to change the shirt in the first place, and whether it thus warrants a technical. Yes, the officials definitely should have been notified, but was that the team's fault or the scorer's? Either way, if you decide it does warrant a "T," the penalty (page 57, Rules Book) is given when the situation occurs. Also, the Casebook seems pretty clear (10.1.2) that once the ball becomes live after this situation, "it is too late to penalize."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Todd is right. Once that player with the "illegal" number comes in, and ball goes live, too late for the T.

------------------
Brian Johnson

I respectfully disagree with Brian and Todd.
The Penalty part of the rule says "Penalized if discovered while being violated." Only in Art. 3 (illegal number) does the Penalty say penalized if discovered before the ball becoming live. This is an Article 1 infraction (participate after changing his/her number without reporting to scorers AND an official). The ball becoming live is not applicable here if you read Rule 10.3.1 and its penalty phase.

grussell -

youre not trying to embarrass 2 of our more experienced refs are yoU? *GRIN*

If the average fan knew how many rules there are to remember at a seconds notice, they would ahve more respect for refs. I know I have more respect for refs since taking it up 3 years ago.

Okay...the scoop on both questions.

I live in NC, and as such, have access to Dick Knox, head of the National Federation Rules Committee for basketball. I just finished talking to him, and his answer to both situations is as follows:

1. Basket counts as a 2. As soon as it was touched, it is no longer a 3.

2. Team technical, neither direct nor indirect to the head coach. Two shots and the ball, but the technical is not flagrant. It IS penalized WHEN discovered being violated. The live ball argument does not apply here. This situation differs little from a player not being in the book and scoring a basket or committing a foul; penalized when discovered if the player is in the game.

grussell -

how bout that.........Just what I said....

Go back and read what you said... In my case, the player was already in the game; your answer was "player can enter once tech is administered." Also, my first question had nothing to do with the shooter's feet as much as it had to do with whether the touching, whether in- or outside the arc, changed the value of the basket..... Still, overall, your answer was essentially correct, I must say!

[This message has been edited by grussell (edited February 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by grussell (edited February 17, 2000).]

grussell -

ok ok Cut me a little slack here -

I mentioned about the feet only because I thought you might not realize that from your description "he released the ball from outside the arc" indicated as such and then my last comment on #1 was "once it was tipped it was 2"

#2 I didnt read your post carefully...I thought the second half had not started yet...I got the t and that she could play...that was the important part...

jackgil--

you're correct...not meaning to be too picky. I appreciate yours and everyone else's help. It just shows what an unusual situation this was and how many different methods of interpreting the same play exist...

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Grussell -- along that line of thought --- what happens if shot is taken by A1 and is short and it hits A2's head and goes in. Is it a basket? I saw it happen so don't think it ludicrous.

With all due respect to Mr. Knox, I'd like some justification if possible regarding the shirt number being changed in the book. Casebook 3.2.2E on page 15 seems to address this post right on the head. Nowhere does it say a "T" is charged or that the official must be notified. This seems to contradict Mr. Knox's interpretation. Clarification please?

3.2.2E Team A properly submits its squad list and designates the five starters as required at least ten minutes before the scheduled start of the game. Anytime thereafter, either before the game starts or during the game, the coach asks the scorer to change a number in the scorebook: (a) so it corresponds to what the squad member is wearing or (b) because a player's shirt has excessive blood on it or (c) because a player's shirt is torn.

Ruling: In (a), a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b) and (c) the shirt is changed and the number change made in the scorebook WITHOUT ANY PENALTY.

Walt...

Called Dick back, as what you said made perfect sense to me too. His response was that if the official scorer is aware but does not notify the officials, nor does the coach notify the officials, the penalty is a technical foul. When I talked to him the first time, he asked me which scorer had been told by the coach to change the number, and I told him I was uncertain; although this is useful information, it makes no difference in the penalty phase of the rule. He said that if the official scorer does not relay this situation to the officials, then there is a technical, as the official scorer is a part of the crew as well. Hope this clarifies things up (and I'm glad Dick doesn't charge by the phone call).

Thanks, Walt. I too respect Mr. Knox, though I don't know him, but I study the rules pretty hard too. Just 'cuz he helps write them, doesn't mean he knows them ALL at a moment's conversation. Your point lends support to what I was trying to say. Plus, it would seem contradictory to apply Rule 10-3-1, yet call this a "team" technical and not consider it a flagrant. The player IS listed in the book and by rule becomes a player when the ball becomes live. It is questionable whether it warrants a "T" anyway, but if it IS a team technical, then the penalty as prescribed is assessed when it occurs--i.e., when the scorer is requested to change the player's number in the book. Until I hear a better rationale for interpreting this otherwise, I stand by my position.

Also, regarding the deflected shot/pass: If it was considered a pass, then I agree with Mr. Knox that it's only 2 points. But if it is deemed a "shot" because the ref couldn't with certainty say otherwise, then a blocked or tipped shot that was taken outside the arc is still 3 points. That's clear in the casebook.

Finally, I take no embarrassment if I'm corrected about something. I've yet to meet anyone who is never wrong about a rule interpretation once in a while. So, "grussel," thanks for a stimulating discussion and keeping us all on our toes. This matter isn't resolved yet to our unanimous satistaction, but I love these dialogs even so. Keep it comin'!

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited February 21, 2000).]

Todd-

Now that I think more about it and listening to your comments, I'm thinking a deflected shot from 3 counts as 3. Haven't we seen where a shot goes in that is ever so slightly brushed or tipped by the defender. I don't think we'd have a question counting this as 2 or 3. It is only when the ball is deflected on a 3 further toward the basket that we have our doubts. Where it is deflected shouldn't matter.

Todd, sounds like your quote from the rules/casebook would be very convincing in a court of law.

BTW, Todd, I was only pulling your leg when I mad comment about your being embarrassed. I consider you very knowledgeable of the rules and find you always try to substantiate your answers.

Fight nicely boys....lol
How dare anyone challenge the Todd-meister.
He's been the Obee-wan-kanobe of this thing since I've been on here. He knows his stuff, boys and admits/corrects his errors. Todd, you wanna run for office? I'll back ya dude! Keep up the good work big guy.

A BAT IS NOT A TRY...Look at 5.2.1...A 3 pointer results from a try or tap. Anything else, ie, bat, is a 2 pointer, even if batted from 75 feet!

How do you say to the coach I "thought" he was passing the ball. Therefore it counts as a 2point. tough call.

Since this was a tipped (partially blocked) shot, wouldn't it be different from a batted ball. I may be reaching here, but doesn't batting imply an intentional striking towards some particular direction?

Man, I need to bring some of my books to the office.

Could this be helpful rules of thumb?:

If the "passer/shooter" was fouled, would your put him/her to the line (if team not in the bonus)?

Did the official signal a 3-pt shot attempt?

Let's not venture down the road of if the ball went in or not!

[This message has been edited by pizanno (edited February 18, 2000).]