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BayStateRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:08pm

Earrings & Liability
 
For the lawyers and wanna be lawyers on this forum: Can you point me to a specific legal case where an official has been held liable or sued for negligence because he allowed a girl to play while wearing earrings and someone was injured and blamed the official?

I have been told, clearly and unequivacoally, not to allow girls (and boys) to play while wearing earrings, even if they put tape over the earrings. It has always been an easy call for me -- until this weekend.

Girls varsity level ...end of summer tournament hosted by a local college. The tournament director is the college basketball coach. I am U1 (2-man crew) and before the opening tap, I see one player with tape on one ear lobe. She tells me it is covering an earring. I then see a small stud earring in the other ear that is not taped (this one is not on the ear lobe.) I tell her that she cannot play with earrings -- taped or not. I also told her that as a varsity player, she should know that she cannot play with earrings. The head coach is a dad...since Massachusetts does not allow varsity coaches to coach in the off-season. I tell him the situation and he has no problem with the ruling. The girl declines to remove the earrings (I did not tell her to do that...I only told her that she could not play with them.)

We get a substitute for the player and a couple of minutes later the tournament director approaches me. She said that this is an "informal summer tournament" and I should not be so rigid about the rule. I tell her...in clear, unambiguous words...that this rule is a safety and liability issue. She said that she will allow the player to participate if the earrings are taped and she will accept liability. I tell her that I want a written waiver and from her and the girl's parent and she agrees.

The player later enters the game, with both earrings taped. The game proceeds without incident and I have not heard from any lawyers yet. That night I get a call from the tournament assignor, who officiated several games. He said he had an "earring incident" in one of his late games (girl playing with tape over earrings; not discovered until very late in game; he tells girl she cannot play with earring; girl, coach and parents say she has played all day like that and no other official said anything.)

Now...when I told the girl in my game that she could not participate, my partner said, out loud, that it was fine as long as they were taped. I pulled him aside and told him "absolutely not. We are not going to waive this rule." He had the same attitude as the tournament director: "It is only summer ball. It is no big deal. Let's get the game going." To be fair, after I spoke with him later and after he thought about it, he changed his mind. He said he is an "old timer" who doesn't worry about these things, but upon reflection, he agreed that I was correct in insisting that she not play with the earrings.

When I described this to another official today, he said, "Tape them. Let's play. It's only summer."

So...back to my original query. If it is a summer tournament...not played under any the sanction of the MIAA or any other formal organization (but using NFHS rules), can the tournament director decree "taped earrings are OK"? Should I insist on a written waiver in advance? Am I being ridiculously overcautious? And lastly...what is with these girl athletes? Why don't they just leave the earrings at home or in the car before a game...any game.

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:15pm

Good grief. I hate this about girls ball, but I can't imagine letting this go at the high school varsity level; even in summer ball. They should know better. Liability or not, it's a safety issue and she's not just endangering herself.

I'm pretty certain it's not going to close up in an hour.

TDs can pretty much dictate whatever they want; they don't have to have me officiate their games, though. Regardless of liability, I'm not interested in applying first aid when someone gets cut or an ear gets ripped. Tape falls off when players sweat.

I caved on this once in a 4th grade AAU girls game. After reflection afterwards, I won't do it again.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:16pm

I do not know of a single case that has been filed about this issue. I am sure someone knows of a specific case. Considering the litigious nature of this country and that people and companies are sued all the time over a perceived violation of a policy or something that is not even against policy, I do not want to take the chances. But if a tournament says it is OK, I would have no problem throwing them under the bus if there is a legal action taken.

Peace

Tio Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:23pm

I will try to make this as simple as possible.

As officials, our job is to enforce the rules. There are no jewelry rules at every level. When we as officials, choose to not enforce the rules (i.e. allowing players to wear jewelry), we totally open ourselves up for a negligence suit. I cannot recall a law suit of this kind, but it could happen....

Ch1town Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:34pm

I had the opportunity to work a NCAA-W summer league this year. The women had bobbypins, earrings, studs (tongue) I tried to have them remove the illegal objects, but the director insisted that "it's only summer ball". So we played on & without any incidents thank God! I'm learning that summer ball isn't as by the book as the regular season, but one would tend to think safety should be a goal year 'round :confused:

Only 119 days until the regular season tips off! Then we won't have to hear the tired "it's only summer ball" excuses anymore :D



coach: You didn't see that travel?
official: Yes but it's only summer ball.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
I had the opportunity to work a NCAA-W summer league this year. The women had bobbypins, earrings, studs (tongue) I tried to have them remove the illegal objects, but the director insisted that "it's only summer ball". So we played on & without any incidents thank God! I'm learning that summer ball isn't as by the book as the regular season, but one would tend to think safety should be a goal year 'round :confused:

Only 119 days until the regular season tips off! Then we won't have to hear the tired "it's only summer ball" excuses anymore :D



coach: You didn't see that travel?
official: Yes but it's only summer ball.

And I would have said to the TD, if they sue you and me is that going to be your excuse? Summer ball does not excuse any safety issue. I know that is hard to fight for sometimes and I have been there as well. But I will not play a game with a clear safety violation.

Peace

Camron Rust Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:49pm

Saftey rules should never be waived. End of discussion.

RCBSports Mon Aug 04, 2008 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Saftey rules should never be waived. End of discussion.

Agreed. Safety is for the kids. Hence why they make rules =P

-Lucas

Jurassic Referee Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Safety rules should never be waived. End of discussion.

Unfortunately, some officials will always find some kind of weak excuse not to take care of bidness.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Unfortunately, some officials will always find some kind of weak excuse not to take care of bidness.

I do not think that is fair. Many times the Tournament Director is more concerned about making the participants happy and they are unaware of the rules in the first place. I had the very same thing several years ago and I did not know what to do at the time. Now I take a much clearer stand and what is required as it deals with the rules. During the regular season this is not an issue because we are under the jurisdiction of the state and if we do not enforce the rules thoroughly, there is a different consequence. Often during the summer the TD wants to make everyone happy and they do not have a set of rules or an organization making sure they follow strict guidelines.

Peace

Man In Blue Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:28pm

It's just summer ball..

Why do you have to call it so tight?

Don't call a travel...

What's a hand check?

It's just blood...

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I do not think that is fair. Many times the Tournament Director is more concerned about making the participants happy and they are unaware of the rules in the first place. I had the very same thing several years ago and I did not know what to do at the time. Now I take a much clearer stand and what is required as it deals with the rules. During the regular season this is not an issue because we are under the jurisdiction of the state and if we do not enforce the rules thoroughly, there is a different consequence. Often during the summer the TD wants to make everyone happy and they do not have a set of rules or an organization making sure they follow strict guidelines.

I agree with both of you.

On the one hand, TDs (and coaches, players, and Moms) are taking advantage of newer officials who aren't as sure of themselves. You get a 19 or 20 year old kid in there; with Mom screaming about all the money she just spent that morning getting her daughter hole-punched, coach saying you can't force his best player to the bench, and the TD (who essentially writes your paycheck) wanting to make the coach and mom (who essentially write his check) happy, and it's no wonder the refs cave.

On the other hand, there are enough veteran officials who should know better who come in with the "it's summer ball" attitude and never even question the little bit of tape on the ears.

Smitty Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
The player later enters the game, with both earrings taped. The game proceeds without incident and I have not heard from any lawyers yet. That night I get a call from the tournament assignor, who officiated several games. He said he had an "earring incident" in one of his late games (girl playing with tape over earrings; not discovered until very late in game; he tells girl she cannot play with earring; girl, coach and parents say she has played all day like that and no other official said anything.)

If the safety issues don't convince you that you shouldn't let them play with jewelry, this should. You're screwing your fellow refs who now have to clean up your mess when they enforce the rule in the later games.

BayStateRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
On the other hand, there are enough veteran officials who should know better who come in with the "it's summer ball" attitude and never even question the little bit of tape on the ears.

The officials for this tournament are varsity-level and college-level. It is a quality tournament with some of the top girls teams in Massacusetts and New Hampshire. The TD is the girls college coach. So...we don't have folks who lack rules knowledge or are uncomfortable enforcing the rules.

The assignor told me later he liked how I handled it and he would have backed me fully if I refused to allow the girl to play, even pulling all the officials from the courts, if it came to that. He was upset at the TD for her attitude, but as others have posted here, earrings and summer ball are common at the college level. And as Rut noted...the TD wants schools to come to this tournament and she thought the "tape 'em and waive 'em" policy was good enough.

Since it is her tournament, played under no formal sanction (T-shirts for the winners; bragging rights for anyone who wants; a couple of college coaches hanging around to scout and/or recruit), she can pick and chose the rules. We already had changed several rules: running time (except for foul shots and last two minutes of each half); no shot-clock (Mass. uses 30-second clock) or 10-second backcourt; uniform numbers didn't matter (one team had three '0's; another team had players with 3-digit numbers). I know that none of these are safety issues, but the rules are the rules. If we waive some rules (or the TD does), does it automatically follow that we can waive any rule?

BayStateRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty
If the safety issues don't convince you that you shouldn't let them play with jewelry, this should. You're screwing your fellow refs who now have to clean up your mess when they enforce the rule in the later games.

It was not the same player, but your point is valid. This girl claimed she wears them during her high school games all year. I have had her team in past years and I can promise it would never happen in a sanctioned MIAA game I work. I still don't understand why the girls don't take them out.

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
If we waive some rules (or the TD does), does it automatically follow that we can waive any rule?

No. The TD has a right to do as she wishes, but she won't have me officiating her games if she waives safety rules. Again, I'm not interested in stopping the game to clean blood up off the floor. Liability is a minor concern for me; the actual safety of the players is a bigger deal to me.

College coach should know better, and I guarantee you princess will take her earrings out if she thinks a college scholarship may be riding on whether she plays in the tournament or not.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty
If the safety issues don't convince you that you shouldn't let them play with jewelry, this should. You're screwing your fellow refs who now have to clean up your mess when they enforce the rule in the later games.

We worry too much about what other officials do. I do not care what someone did before or even after me. I only can be responsible for what I do and what I am dealing with in that particular game.

Peace

Odd Duck Mon Aug 04, 2008 02:58pm

I have had a tournament director tell me the same thing. However, when I asked who he was going to get to officiate the game he just looked at me with an odd look and said "What do you mean?" I replied, "If she plays with earrings I will not be officiating."

Girl didn't play. :D

Tim C Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:33pm

Coming Soon
 
In the upcoming November issue of "High School Today" there is a legal column written by Lee Green (Baker University Professor of Law) that covers this issue.

There is no such thing as a waiver of liability concerning high school rules. In any sport, at any level, if NFHS Rules are used there can be no waiver. It is not legal to do so.

The attempt at a waiver places the official in the position of responsibility.

Do not accept this practice.

Regards,

BktBallRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:35pm

I would have told the tournament director that she could find someone else to work the game. I would not have allowed her to player with the earrings.

BktBallRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I do not think that is fair. Many times the Tournament Director is more concerned about making the participants happy and they are unaware of the rules in the first place. I had the very same thing several years ago and I did not know what to do at the time. Now I take a much clearer stand and what is required as it deals with the rules. During the regular season this is not an issue because we are under the jurisdiction of the state and if we do not enforce the rules thoroughly, there is a different consequence. Often during the summer the TD wants to make everyone happy and they do not have a set of rules or an organization making sure they follow strict guidelines.

Peace

None of that matters if someone gets hurt. Even with a waiver, they can prove you're negligent because you knew the rules but still allowed her to play.

BktBallRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C
In the upcoming November issue of "High School Today" there is a legal column written by Lee Green (Baker University Professor of Law) that covers this issue.

There is no such thing as a waiver of liability concerning high school rules. In any sport, at any level, if NFHS Rules are used there can be no waiver. It is not legal to do so.

The attempt at a waiver places the official in the position of responsibility.

Do not accept this practice.

Regards,

Thank you, Tim. This is exactly what an attorney told our group.

BktBallRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
Since it is her tournament, played under no formal sanction (T-shirts for the winners; bragging rights for anyone who wants; a couple of college coaches hanging around to scout and/or recruit), she can pick and chose the rules.

She may change timing rules or such things, but in no way would I ever tolerate her changing a safety rule. I believe you were in error.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
None of that matters if someone gets hurt. Even with a waiver, they can prove you're negligent because you knew the rules but still allowed her to play.

Of course they can. But that does not mean everyone knows how to deal with when confronted with the situation. It is not all about what the rules says it is also about how you can deal with the pressure and knowing your place in all the excitement.

Peace

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Thank you, Tim. This is exactly what an attorney told our group.

It makes total sense. It's becoming established legal doctrine that a person cannot truly sign away their liability, it seems.

Furthermore, even if Mom and Dad and all living Grandparents attempt to sign a waiver, you'd need to get one from every parent of every child playing in that game. And that's assuming the waivers would actually protect the official from liability; a dubious proposition at best.

Pushing for a waiver could be viewed as an acknowledgment of the dangers, leaving you wide open for a lawsuit.

Tio Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:49pm

Screw the tournament director! Do you think they are going to admit they told you the kids could play with earrings once the lawsuits start flying? Plain and simple, the guy or girl takes the earrings out or they don't play. If the tournament director wants to avoid the rules, then why do they need the officials? I walk out of the gym at that point. Which is probably why I hate summer ball.

Mark Padgett Mon Aug 04, 2008 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
and the TD (who essentially writes your paycheck) wanting to make the coach and mom

That's one horny TD! :D

Y2Koach Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town

coach: You didn't see that travel?
official: Yes but it's only summer ball.

I actually had this exact conversation with an official, at a High School Varsity level summer jamboree. It actually went like this:

Y2Koach: Isn't that a travel
Official: haha, yes it is
Y2Koach: He did it again, haha
Official: I saw that
Y2Koach: Call it then, he's getting past our guy every time!
Official: I know, but it's just summer ball. If I called every travel, he'd have like 10 and this game would take forever
Y2Koach: Do you have somewhere to go???
Official: That's enough, coach
Y2Koach: So what happens when that kid goes into next season and gets called for a travel every time he gets the ball?? How does he get better??
Official: That's not my job, coach.
Y2Koach: Then what IS your job?
Official: *TWEET*, technical foul...
Opposing coach: What did you do?
Y2Koach: He said he saw #21 travel several times, but didn't call it cuz he has somewhere to go...
Opposing coach to #21: See! i TOLD YOU THAT MOVES A TRAVEL!!
#21: No it's not, they didn't call it
Opposing coach: Wait, isn't it running time?
Y2Koach: He said it, not me...
Opposing coach to Y2Koach: We've been trying to get #21 to break that habit of dragging his back foot on that move...
Official: That's enough coach
Opposing coach to Y2Koach: I'm not even talking to him!
Official: *TWEET* technical foul...

hilarious...

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
That's one horny TD! :D

Fixed it.

Adam Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y2Koach
Official: I know, but it's just summer ball. If I called every travel, he'd have like 10 and this game would take forever

I wish I didn't believe you; but I do.
Answer: "No, if you called everyone, he'd stop after 2 or 3."

Did he offset the Ts? :)

just another ref Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y2Koach
Opposing coach to #21: See! i TOLD YOU THAT MOVES A TRAVEL!!
#21: No it's not, they didn't call it


Hard to argue with this logic.

Jurassic Referee Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Thank you, Tim. This is exactly what an attorney told our group.

We had the same legal feedback.

BayStateRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C
In the upcoming November issue of "High School Today" there is a legal column written by Lee Green (Baker University Professor of Law) that covers this issue.

There is no such thing as a waiver of liability concerning high school rules. In any sport, at any level, if NFHS Rules are used there can be no waiver. It is not legal to do so.

The attempt at a waiver places the official in the position of responsibility.

Do not accept this practice.

Regards,

Thank you. If you have an advance copy, please send me a PM. I definitely want this.

I will accept the lumps tossed at me for letting this go. I know that was correct when I told the girl she could not play...and I should have told the TD the same thing. No jewlery. No waivers.

The last time I told a girl she could not play with earrings, (younger girl; travel league; no TD to challenge me) she left the court in tears, but somehow returned a few minutes later without the earrings. I was quite surprised this varsity player (probably 16- or 17-years-old) didn't just remove the earrings. I have been told repeatedly that even new piercings do not close up in an hour or two.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y2Koach
I actually had this exact conversation with an official, at a High School Varsity level summer jamboree. It actually went like this:

Y2Koach: Isn't that a travel
Official: haha, yes it is
Y2Koach: He did it again, haha
Official: I saw that
Y2Koach: Call it then, he's getting past our guy every time!
Official: I know, but it's just summer ball. If I called every travel, he'd have like 10 and this game would take forever
Y2Koach: Do you have somewhere to go???
Official: That's enough, coach

hilarious...

I must be missing something here. Does not the clock run during the summer? Whether I call 80 fouls and violations, the game moves pretty much at the same pace does it not?

Actually the more fouls (or violations) I call, the less I have to move. ;)

Peace

Nevadaref Mon Aug 04, 2008 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
... you'd need to get one from every parent of every child playing in that game.

That was also my thought when reading the OP. He desired a waiver only from the player wearing the earrings, but what if another participant objected to being put in the dangerous situation of competing against or with such a player?

It isn't just about protecting the player wearing the earrings. Don't the other players on the court have to be protected from the possibility of suffering an injury from someone else's jewelry? Why wasn't the OP concerned with getting them to sign waivers as well?

Mark Padgett Mon Aug 04, 2008 05:40pm

Even in our local kids rec league, this is an inviolate safety rule. I once told a 7th grade girl she didn't have to take her earrings off as long as she took her ears off. I think she thought I was serious.

BayStateRef Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
That was also my thought when reading the OP. He desired a waiver only from the player wearing the earrings, but what if another participant objected to being put in the dangerous situation of competing against or with such a player?

It isn't just about protecting the player wearing the earrings. Don't the other players on the court have to be protected from the possibility of suffering an injury from someone else's jewelry? Why wasn't the OP concerned with getting them to sign waivers as well?

As stated in the OP, I asked the TD to sign the waiver as well as the girl's parent.

Your point is correct. Of course, none of the other girls complained nor did their parents or coach.

There is something at play with girl's basketball that this problem comes up repeatedly. TD's at many levels are not willing to stand up to the few players who want it all ways -- play; wear what they want; no responsibility for their actions. Overgeneralization? Yes. But it comes up often enough that there is more than a little truth to it.

BillyMac Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:07pm

Fashion Police Or Safety Patrol ???
 
My opinion:

If an official fails to notice a player warming up, or playing with an earring: Bad officiating, but probably not negligent.

If an official fails to notice a player warming up, or playing, with a taped earlobe: Bad officiating, but not negligent.

If an official notices a player warming up, or playing with an earring, and doesn't act upon it: Bad officiating, negligent.

If an official notices a a player warming up, or playing with a taped earlobe, and doesn't ask what's under the tape: Bad officiating, but not negligent.

If an official notices a player warming up, or playing with a taped earlobe, asks the player about it, gets a reply, "It's an earring", and doesn't act upon it: Bad officiating, negligent.

If an official notices a player warming up, or playing with a taped earlobe, asks the player about it, gets a reply, "It's a cut", accepts that reply, and later find that the player lied, had an earring, and was injured because of that earring: Good officiating, not negligent.

If an official officiates in a game using "hybrid" rules, i.e. number of fouls to bonus, running time, etc., and these "hybrid" rules are written down for all to see, and one of the "hybrid" rules is that players may wear earrings: Stick a copy of the rules in your bag, and "When in Rome ...".

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:16pm

I would not go as far to suggest something an official does not see when it comes to jewelry that it is bad officiating. Not all jewelry is easily seen. It is the coach's responsibility to make sure their players are not wearing illegal equipment. That is why we ask them that stupid question before the game. We may not easily see what is on a player's ear because of their hair style, the color of the player and the color of the jewelry. I know even when looking for things, it can be difficult to always see jewelry on a player. I am not going to ever fault an official for missing something that is often very small and harder to see from a distance.

And do not get me started on hair beads. ;)

Peace

BillyMac Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:24pm

15 Minutes, Not A Good Time To Daydream ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I would not go as far to suggest something an official does not see when it comes to jewelry that it is bad officiating. Not all jewelry is easily seen. We may not easily see what is on a player's ear because of their hair style, the color of the player and the color of the jewelry. I know even when looking for things, it can be difficult to always see jewelry on a player. I am not going to ever fault an official for missing something that is often very small and harder to see from a distance.

You're right. What I really meant is that is the responsibility of the officials to observe players warming up, looking for jewelry, casts, uniforms, headbands, wrist bands, duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, etc. There's a reason why the NFHS wants officials on the floor at least 15 minutes before the starting time. If we look for these infractions, we're doing our job, even if we miss something. If we don't look for these infractions, we're not doing our job. If we're daydreaming, flirting with the cute mom in the first row, or talking to the fans, we're not doing our job, and that's bad officiating.

Nevadaref Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
As stated in the OP, I asked the TD to sign the waiver as well as the girl's parent.

Your point is correct. Of course, none of the other girls complained nor did their parents or coach.

There is something at play with girl's basketball that this problem comes up repeatedly. TD's at many levels are not willing to stand up to the few players who want it all ways -- play; wear what they want; no responsibility for their actions. Overgeneralization? Yes. But it comes up often enough that there is more than a little truth to it.

Bay, I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything. Hopefully, you didn't take my comments as personal. They were not intended to be.

I was merely making the point that while whoever happened to be the official in this situation (in this case it was you) made the extra effort to insist upon and secure a waiver from the player wearing the illegal item, it struck me as odd that permission from other players who had to compete with this player wearing such an item was not also solicited and obtained. It seemed to me that the risk to which they were being exposed was mistakenly forgotten about.

So that's the only point that I was trying to make. In such a situation it is not just about the player wearing the item, but there must be a concern as well for the safety of the other participants. A major reason that the NFHS and NCAA have such rules in place.

I agree that you were put in a difficult situation by your partner, fellow officials, and the tournament director, but please remember that you always have the choice to decline the game/assignment. If you feel strongly enough that a tournament is not doing things the right way, then just don't work that event. Sure you lose out on a few bucks, but you open yourself up to a much bigger problem. Let someone else take that risk if they wish.

JRutledge Mon Aug 04, 2008 06:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
You're right. What I really meant is that is the responsibility of the officials to observe players warming up, looking for jewelry, casts, uniforms, headbands, wrist bands, duplicate numbers, illegal numbers, etc. There's a reason why the NFHS wants officials on the floor at least 15 minutes before the starting time. If we look for these infractions, we're doing our job, even if we miss something. If we don't look for these infractions, we're not doing our job. That's bad officiating.

I am not talking about daydreaming. I am talking about how easy it is to miss something like an earring. Unless you have a clear look at something, you might miss it and you can be looking for something. And even things like casts, wristbands and even headbands are not always seen until the game starts. Why, because if they are wearing warm-ups, you might not see things on their arms and not every player wear their headband during warm-ups.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Aug 04, 2008 07:11pm

A Trip To Neverland ...
 
An additional two cents:

I would never tell a player that they had to take off earrings to play. I would tell them that they can't play with earrings.

Also, if I noticed a player warming up, or playing with a taped earlobe, asked the player about it, got a reply, "It's a cut", I would never ask that player to prove it by removing the tape.

BillyMac Mon Aug 04, 2008 07:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I am talking about how easy it is to miss something like an earring. Unless you have a clear look at something, you might miss it and you can be looking for something. And even things like casts, wristbands and even headbands are not always seen until the game starts. Why, because if they are wearing warm-ups, you might not see things on their arms and not every player wear their headband during warm-ups.

From Billymac: "You're right. If we look for these infractions, we're doing our job, even if we miss something. If we don't look for these infractions, we're not doing our job."

JRutledge: What part of "You're right" didn't you understand.

I'm sure that we've all observed officials who are wasting their 15 minutes before a game doing things that they're not supposed to be doing, and not doing things they're supposed to be doing. We may miss some infractions due to hair, warmups, etc. but we at least have to make an attempt to look.

I often have a problem noticing metal hair clips during warmups, but when I see them in the game, they can't play with them in their hair.

Camron Rust Tue Aug 05, 2008 01:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I must be missing something here. Does not the clock run during the summer? Whether I call 80 fouls and violations, the game moves pretty much at the same pace does it not?

Actually the more fouls (or violations) I call, the less I have to move. ;)

Peace

Yep, you're missing something...stopped clock here for summer league. I'm sure we're not the only place that does stopped clock for summer. We do straight-up rules except for no count of personal fouls and an shortened halftime.

grunewar Tue Aug 05, 2008 05:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
I am talking about how easy it is to miss something like an earring. Unless you have a clear look at something, you might miss it and you can be looking for something.

I had an African American young man on the baseball team I coached last spring who wore a small, black, pearl-type earing. Man, was that sucker hard to spot even up close in the dugout. He knows that when he steps onto my court though I'm gonna take a real good look. :D

Unfortunately, he's young and doesn't look at it in the safety sense. He treats it like a game to see if he can get away with it. But, as JRut states, this one could be easily missed.

JugglingReferee Tue Aug 05, 2008 06:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C
In the upcoming November issue of "High School Today" there is a legal column written by Lee Green (Baker University Professor of Law) that covers this issue.

There is no such thing as a waiver of liability concerning high school rules. In any sport, at any level, if NFHS Rules are used there can be no waiver. It is not legal to do so.

The attempt at a waiver places the official in the position of responsibility.

Do not accept this practice.

Regards,

This is also true in Canada, but in football. :) I'm sure other sports have the same ruling from the law's POV.

JRutledge Tue Aug 05, 2008 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Yep, you're missing something...stopped clock here for summer league. I'm sure we're not the only place that does stopped clock for summer. We do straight-up rules except for no count of personal fouls and an shortened halftime.

I have only worked one tournament that had a stop clock and that was an AAU Tournament. There were also coaches all over the country watching as well. It is common that most games are running clock.

Peace

JRutledge Tue Aug 05, 2008 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
From Billymac: "You're right. If we look for these infractions, we're doing our job, even if we miss something. If we don't look for these infractions, we're not doing our job."

JRutledge: What part of "You're right" didn't you understand.

I'm sure that we've all observed officials who are wasting their 15 minutes before a game doing things that they're not supposed to be doing, and not doing things they're supposed to be doing. We may miss some infractions due to hair, warmups, etc. but we at least have to make an attempt to look.

I often have a problem noticing metal hair clips during warmups, but when I see them in the game, they can't play with them in their hair.

I think you are missing the main point I am making. I spend a lot of my time looking for these infractions and I miss them often because the beads are the same color as the hair, or the hair is covering up the ears. Or better yet the ears are small and the earring is so small and does not sparkle, you do not see them. It is not always about wasting time and not looking for things. But when players have warm-ups covering their entire uniform, you do not see all the possible infractions. And as someone said when you work games where African-Americans are involved and the beads are the same color as the hair or the hair pin is the same color (or similar color) as the hair, even looking really hard you can miss something. I am sure this is the case for other people, but I know it is common to have African-American males wear corn roll styles of hair and often they put beads on the bottom of their hair.

Peace

ref18 Tue Aug 05, 2008 03:14pm

If they wanted to let the player play with earrings that badly, then they'd have to go through the trouble to find new refs. At least if I was there.

I actually had an incident with a soccer league I supervise, earrings were allowed, and not knowing anything about soccer, I didn't make an issue of it. However last week, an earring got caught in the mesh of a soccer net, and was subsequently ripped out of the ear. Definitely not a pretty sight.

Long story short, we now have a zero tolerance policy against jewelry in ALL intramural sports I supervise.

If it's in the rules, and you willfully let them participate, you are liable. It's basic negligence, and you will get your *** handed to you. And I think being negligent to this degree might put into question whether or not your insurance will cover the incident.

Adam Tue Aug 05, 2008 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ref18
I actually had an incident with a soccer league I supervise, earrings were allowed, and not knowing anything about soccer, I didn't make an issue of it. However last week, an earring got caught in the mesh of a soccer net, and was subsequently ripped out of the ear. Definitely not a pretty sight.

I can't tell you how many times the girls around here get their ears stuck in the basketball nets.

Okay, seriously, this is a good example. Earrings could just as easily get caught in another player's jersey or hair as they could in a net.

26 Year Gap Wed Aug 06, 2008 08:11pm

Just stick to your guns. More often than not it has been AAU and freshly pierced ears in my experience. I basically advise the coach that to play they need to remove them. And the protest about having to keep them in so the holes don't close are met by the standard "If the holes close up in an hour she should get her money back." Most of the time there is no argument but one girl in a VG game last year sat on the bench the whole game rather than take them out and play.

The tournament director should direct the tournament and if he or she wants quality officials deferring to the officials in these matters is needed. Most problems of this nature in the regular season stem from laxity in games that 'were not as important' when in fact they could and should be a training ground for players, coaches and officials alike.

BillyMac Thu Aug 07, 2008 06:24am

Almost ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap
I basically advise the coach that to play they need to remove them.

I would never tell a player that they had to take off earrings to play. I would tell them that they can't play with earrings.

Adam Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:05am

Semantics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
I would never tell a player that they had to take off earrings to play. I would tell them that they can't play with earrings.

I've seen you say this before, Billy. How is this more than semantics?

Scrapper1 Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I've seen you say this before, Billy. How is this more than semantics?

In one case, you're giving the player a command: "Take off the earrings".

In the other case, you're giving the player a condition: "If you wish to play in the game, you may not wear the earrings."

In a practical sense, I don't know if it makes much difference.

Adam Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
In one case, you're giving the player a command: "Take off the earrings".

In the other case, you're giving the player a condition: "If you wish to play in the game, you may not wear the earrings."

In a practical sense, I don't know if it makes much difference.

I don't know. He says we shouldn't say, "You have to take them off to play." Instead we should say, "You can't play with them on." Both sentences give them options.

I can see not stopping with, "Take of the earrings." It doesn't give the players the option, but the other two are essentially the same.

jearef Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:43am

I've been waiting for someone here to admit he is an attorney and provide an answer to this question. Since none of my brethren in the bar have stepped up, I'll give it a shot.

First, to the argument that "they changed the timing and foul rules, why can't they change this one?". Answer: Timing and fouls have nothing to do with player safety.

Second, to the question of waivers. The OP indicated he got a "waiver" from the TD. Waiver of what? The TD certainly can't waive the player's right to file a negligence suit. The only thing the TD could give you would be an indemnity/hold harmless agreement, (TD agrees to pay you if you have to pay the player or anyone else because of earrings) which would be essentially worthless unless the TD is independently wealthy, or unless he/she has liability insurance that specifically covers such agreements, which isn't likely. Waiver from the player is worthless as well, because she probably isn't old enough to enter into a legally binding contract. Waiver from her parents might be sufficient, but only if they are fully informed as to the risks involved, etc. Also, waiver from her parents won't help if someone else is injured because you choose to overlook the rule. Think that is far-fetched? The girl's earring catches in another girl's jersey; as the earring rips through the earlobe, a bloody hunk of ear lands on other player's face, causing her to faint and strike her head on the floor. Severe concussion/skull fracture results. And you are in DEEP crap.

Here is my cross-examination of the offending official:

Me: Mr. Official, you are aware of the NFHS rule which prohibits the wearing of jewelry, are you not?

You: Yes, sir.

Me: And you would agree with me that earrings are jewelry, and are thus expressly prohibited by rule?

You: Yes, sir.

Me: And you would also agree with me that the rules specifically provide that they are intended "to provide reasonable safety and protection"?

You: Yes, sir.

Me: And you would agree that, according to this language right here in the rulebook. . . .You know what, why don't you read this highlighted language to the jury for me?

You: "It is the policy of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee that there be no deviation from the rules unless experimental approval has been granted by the NFHS liaison to the rules committee."

Me: No deviation, that's what it says?

You: Yes, sir.

Me: But you and your partners decided to deviate in this case.

You: No, the TD made that decision.

Me: Does the TD have the authority to overrule you on a traveling call? Or a foul call?

You: No.

Me: Then why in the world would you allow her to overrule you on a safety issue? Who is charged with the responsibility to enforce the rules?

I could go on, but the point is clear. Never, ever, under any circumstances, agree to play a game when a specific, clear violation of a safety rule exists. It just isn't worth the risk. You can never be in trouble for enforcing the rules; ignoring them is another situation entirely.

Jurassic Referee Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
<fonr color = red>In one case, you're giving the player a command: "Take off the earrings".</font>

You are?:confused:

The way that I read it....in both cases you're telling the player that they can't play unless they remove the earrings. In neither case are you actually telling the player that they have to remove the earrings.

Scrapper1 Thu Aug 07, 2008 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I don't know. He says we shouldn't say, "You have to take them off to play."

Yeah, I didn't notice the "to play" part. I was thinking he didn't want to order her to remove them. But saying, "You have to take them off if you want to play" seems perfectly reasonable.

fullor30 Thu Aug 07, 2008 02:02pm

Had 'just summer ball' varsity girls tournament a few weeks ago with all the aforementioned cliches "the other refs said it's ok" "C'mon, just summer ball"

Favorite is "I can't take them out, I just got them in" I politely say I'm not telling you to remove them but you can't play with them in. Coach then echoes players story. Game starts with girl on bench, a quarter later, guess what? the earrings that couldn't be removed are out. I told her at half she moved much quicker without them. At least I got a smile.

I have no problem enforcing this rule.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Aug 08, 2008 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jearef
I could go on, but the point is clear. Never, ever, under any circumstances, agree to play a game when a specific, clear violation of a safety rule exists. It just isn't worth the risk. You can never be in trouble for enforcing the rules; ignoring them is another situation entirely.

Nicely done, jearef.

irp Sat Aug 09, 2008 01:22pm

Being honest, I had a little sympathy with the TD in the story up until the point they opened their mouth. They are trying to keep people happy and fair enough. I would ask if they would be happy when the blood starts flowing?

Simple point: earrings in = no play over here. Clear risk to the player, I am not too worried about a law suit (and I am a lawyer) but I am worried about the safety of a player.

England Basketball and FIBA are clear - no jewellery. Easy to enforce, players know the rules and don't even try to break them any more. Even at local scrimage games; they know the ref will say 'take it out if you want to play...'

BillyMac Sat Aug 09, 2008 03:15pm

Connecticut NFHS IAABO Basketball ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by irp
Even at local scrimmage games; they know the referee will say "take it out if you want to play".

"You can't play with earrings"

Adam Sat Aug 09, 2008 03:37pm

Billy, please tell me how the two statements differ beyond semantics?

BktBallRef Sat Aug 09, 2008 05:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
I would never tell a player that they had to take off earrings to play. I would tell them that they can't play with earrings.

"You can't play while wearing earrings."

"You'll have to take your earrings out if you want to play."

There is absolutely no difference in those two statements. You haven't told him/her that have to take their earrings out. you've simply said no earrings, no PT. Nothing wrong with either statement.

26 Year Gap Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"You can't play while wearing earrings."

"You'll have to take your earrings out if you want to play."

There is absolutely no difference in those two statements. You haven't told him/her that have to take their earrings out. you've simply said no earrings, no PT. Nothing wrong with either statement.

2+3=5
3+2=5

26 Year Gap Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
I would never tell a player that they had to take off earrings to play. I would tell them that they can't play with earrings.

I see that you took your anal pill today.

Scrapper1 Sun Aug 10, 2008 08:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap
I see that you took your anal pill today.

Is that a suppository? :eek:

26 Year Gap Sun Aug 10, 2008 05:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Is that a suppository? :eek:

I suppose.

BillyMac Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:48am

Top Three Reasons ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"You can't play while wearing earrings". "You'll have to take your earrings out if you want to play". There is absolutely no difference in those two statements. You haven't told him/her that have to take their earrings out. You've simply said no earrings, no PT. Nothing wrong with either statement.

NFHS 3-5-7: Jewelry shall not be worn.

1) The rule doesn't say anything about players removing jewelry, it just says that they can't play with jewelry. Why make the rule, especially one involving safety, more complicated than it really is?

2) If I tell them they have to take earrings off to play, and they're new to this procedure, and somehow hurt themselves, they can't say to their coach, or parent, "He (pointing to me) told me to take them out".

3) Most importantly. This is what we've been taught in my part of the woods, my evaluators know this, and when in Rome, or in my case, my part of the Constitution State ...

just another ref Mon Aug 11, 2008 02:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge Joseph Wapner

"Anybody can sue anybody for anything."


If, in theory, an official can be sued for failure to make the child remove the earrings, resulting in injury, doesn't it follow that an injury produced by an excessive amount of contact because the officials were "letting them play" could also result in a lawsuit? Let us continue to follow the rules and do our best to keep the game safe, not for fear of litigation, but because it is our job and the right thing to do. If you're scared, stay home. It is much more likely that you would commit a traffic violation on the way to the game and cause damage in excess of your insurance coverage.

Mark Padgett Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref
If, in theory, an official can be sued for failure to make the child remove the earrings, resulting in injury, doesn't it follow that an injury produced by an excessive amount of contact because the officials were "letting them play" could also result in a lawsuit?

No, not necessarily. The rule on jewelry is absolute and the exceptions are clearly spelled out in the rulebook. Conversely, the amount of contact allowed is subjective and sometimes unpredictable. I've had games in which contact was called very tight and then, all of a sudden, one of the players tries to take another player's head off (figuratively). You could have a series of games called "loosely" with no incidents at all. As you all know, IANAL (that means "I Am Not A Lawyer", not "I'm Anal" - OK, maybe I am), but I think you're OK unless you continuously allow egregious and/or outrageous behavior.

just another ref Mon Aug 11, 2008 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
No, not necessarily. The rule on jewelry is absolute and the exceptions are clearly spelled out in the rulebook. Conversely, the amount of contact allowed is subjective and sometimes unpredictable.


This is true and easy enough to understand, but having never seen the specific wording of a law which would make an official liable under any circumstance, it is difficult to say what would or would not be included.

BayStateRef Mon Aug 11, 2008 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jearef
I could go on, but the point is clear. Never, ever, under any circumstances, agree to play a game when a specific, clear violation of a safety rule exists. It just isn't worth the risk. You can never be in trouble for enforcing the rules; ignoring them is another situation entirely.

I sent an email to the tournament director today and included your email. I asked her to specifically add "No Jewelry" to the tournament rules for next year. Regardless of her response, I know what I will do when this comes up again. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Mark Padgett Mon Aug 11, 2008 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
I sent an email to the tournament director today and included your email. I asked her to specifically add "No Jewelry" to the tournament rules for next year. Regardless of her response, I know what I will do when this comes up again. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Remember - the NF does have some exceptions, specifically medical alert and religious. You can find instructions for how these items can be worn. Perhaps she should state something along the lines of "the official High School rule regarding the wearing of jewelry will be strictly enforced." I would add, "Coaches who tell players to ignore this rule will have their kneecaps broken." She could then show a diagram of how medical alert and religious jewelry can be worn and also a diagram of what a broken kneecap looks like. I have one of those if she (k)needs it. :p

BayStateRef Mon Aug 11, 2008 04:28pm

I was polite. What I wanted to tell her is that the officials are the sole arbiters of the rules and she should back them 100 percent. I know of several tournaments and leagues that state the rules that simply -- and do it.

Besides, "Religious and medical alert medals are not considered jewelry." (3-5-7)

BillyMac Mon Aug 11, 2008 07:51pm

Exceptions ...
 
Players may not participate while wearing jewelry. Religious medals or medical alert medals are not considered jewelry. A religious medal must be taped and worn under the uniform. A medical alert medal must be taped and may be visible. State associations may, on an individual basis, allow a player to participate while wearing a head covering, if it is worn for medical or religious reasons, provided that the covering is not abrasive, hard, or dangerous, and is attached in such a way that it is highly unlikely to come off during play. Written documentation should be available.

Kelvin green Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref
This is true and easy enough to understand, but having never seen the specific wording of a law which would make an official liable under any circumstance, it is difficult to say what would or would not be included.

What you have to remember is that making an official liable is normally not a statutory law. Any statutory law may limit your liability but normally does not explain what liability is. Some states may define negligence but it would be in general terms.

Most lawsuits that are filed against officials are related to common law negligence (or gross negligence) normally there are several elements to the tort action

"According to some commentators, the sports official fulfills his or her duty to participants and spectators by acting reasonably; in the event the official does not act reasonably in supervising competition, for example, he or she should be held tortiously liable. In other words,referees and game officials need only use reasonable care to see that the rules of competition are complied with. Reasonable care might consist of advising the contestants about illegal holds, punches, and similar tactics.

Reasonable care will require referees to be diligent in detecting infractions of the rules and in sanctioning violators. . . . Every situation is different, and in evaluating a referee's conduct the law will judge it against that of a reasonable and prudent person with similar training and experience" 11 U. Miami Ent. & Sports L. Rev. 375

The original post asked about lawsuits that we knew of .. There was:

Carabba v. Anacortes Sch. Dist. No. 103 435 P.2d 936 (Wash. 1967).

Karas v. Strevell, 227 Ill. 2d 440 (Supreme Court of Illinois Feb 2008)
Unsucessful but made its way through the courts to vindicate.

LeNoble v. City of Fort Lauderdale, 663 So. 2d 1351 (included game officials)

Nunez v. Isidore Newman High School, 306 So. 2d 457 (suit over dangerous floor- did not look like directed at officials but officials had to testify and were in middle of it)

Smith v. National Football League, No. 74-418 Civ. T-K (US D. Fla.)

Rearick v. Refkovsky, 1995 Conn. Super. LEXIS 3125 Referee ejected coach and was later sued for defamation because referee stated he smelled alcohol on coach's breath.

Could not find the case but I know of a lawsuit in Texas I believe going on right now for failure to keep sidelines clear...

I did not do extensive research but did find these few quickly...any of these the referees won but only after long legal battle

Lawsuits are real- What we need to do is take reasonable steps to prvent as many possible problems. We should never ignore safety rules. Never turn a blind eye to somone being stupid....

26 Year Gap Tue Aug 12, 2008 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
No, not necessarily. The rule on jewelry is absolute and the exceptions are clearly spelled out in the rulebook. Conversely, the amount of contact allowed is subjective and sometimes unpredictable. I've had games in which contact was called very tight and then, all of a sudden, one of the players tries to take another player's head off (figuratively). You could have a series of games called "loosely" with no incidents at all. As you all know, IANAL (that means "I Am Not A Lawyer", not "I'm Anal" - OK, maybe I am), but I think you're OK unless you continuously allow egregious and/or outrageous behavior.

There's a pill for that. But you probably already know about it.:D

Adam Wed Aug 13, 2008 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap
There's a pill for that. But you probably already know about it.:D

Is that a, um, well, um.... What's it called again?

26 Year Gap Wed Aug 13, 2008 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Is that a, um, well, um.... What's it called again?

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...UPPOSITORY.jpg

mdray Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef
I sent an email to the tournament director today.


just wondering....did you mention to your assigner that you were intending to do that? Just thinking how assigners would view that....if there was an issue with a school AD, would it be the right thing for a letter directed to the AD to come from the official involved or from the assigner...jmho, but I'd tell the assigner my concerns and let her/him deal with the TD...then if it wasn't resolved to my satisfaction, I wouldn't be available for that site/tournament anymore


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