Block/Charge:John Adams Theroy
 

Just listened to John Adams speak about his theroy on the block charge under the basket. I have never heard it put this way but after he said this it made so much sense.

For those of you who dont know, John is the newly appointed NCAA National Coordiator of Officials, bascially he runs the Tournament in March.

Here is what John said:

The offensive players goal is to try and score the basketball and the job of the defense is to prevent the offense from scoring, then how can the defense be preventing the offense from scoring when standing under the basket trying to take a charge when the ball is out of the offesive players hand for a layup.

Basically what thats saying is that instead of having an arc drawn on the floor, that play is a block everytime. No matter how long they were standing there. After hearing that I fully agree with that philosophy

So John should just put the NBE arc in and turn the college game into the favor-the-offense pro game. :(

Disappointing that he doesn't acknowledge the defender's attempt to make the offensive player pull up for a short jumper instead of finishing at the rim. Also, although the basket would count in an NCAA mens game if released prior to a charging foul being committed, that offensive player still picks up one of his allotted five fouls. That's certainly a way to discourage the offense from scoring in that manner.

He Also Said This ...
 

Here's my favorite John Adams quote:

"Yesterday the greatest question was decided which ever was debated in America; and a greater perhaps never was, nor will be, decided among men. A resolution was passed without one dissenting colony, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States."
(July 2, 1776)

What a piece of garbage. If the NCAA really cared to follow this approach, they would add the NBA circle. I think even in the NBA it's a no-call (or possible charge) if the primary defender is in the RA.

MOfficial:

Are you sure you heard him correctly? I cannot believe that the NCAA Coordinator of Men's Basketball Official would publically make such a grossly inaccurate statement. John Adams has been a basketball official for over 25 years, including over fifteen (15) years as a Division I official. I find it difficult to believe that he would be so ignorant of the definitions of guarding and screening.

"Say it ain't so Joe?"

MTD, Sr.

P.S. If he really did make such a statement I hope that a personal friend of him will have a sit down with him and explain the rule him.

Unfortunately, if he really said that then he is going completely against the current NCAA rules as written. That is completely contrary to what is in the NCAA rulebook. That used to be the Womens' rule and even they changed it to match the Mens rule last year. NCAA rules go by legal guarding position everywhere on the court, including under the baskets.

If he did say that, then that might just make it a tie for the stoopidest statement ever made by any Coordinator anywhere.

I'll believe it when I read it in the rules, an AR or in a rules bulletin.

JR:

Read my post. His statement is the statement of someone who has never read a rule book. The women's rules were always the same, it was just Barb Jacobs was as clueless as the former basketball coach that she was and she just said that this was how is was going to be even though she did not know or understand the rule.

MTD, Sr.

That was going to be my comment, as well. Last year's POE on crashes at the basket made it clear that a defender can have LGP anywhere on the floor.

Also, I don't think it's accurate to say that John Adams will "run the tournament" in March. There's a tournament committee that selects the officials for each round and decides where they will go. Obviously the coordinator of officials has serious input into that process; but, on paper at least, he is merely an advisor to the committee. I'm sure someone else has more definitive information about that.

I love how all those are big and bad here, but you could express your "opinion" at an NCAA Meeting and tell John how "wrong" you feel he is. :D

Peace

I volunteer since I have nothing to lose! :D I ain't doing any Dx ball anytime in my lifetime, so I'll do it.

Well, there are a few opportunities to do that. ;)

Peace

Rut:

I was not planning on attending the IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters' Meeting in September because Start H.S. has a home football game that Friday night and as vice-president of the athletic boosters I am in charge of the concession stand. But I think I am going to beg my wife (she is the real brains of the concession stand, after all she has a degree in business and I am just a structural engineer) to let me go because I can assure you that if John takes that position at the meeting he will be called upon the carpet by quite a few people who are more learned than me on the subject matter and I consider myself quite learned.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. The college football season is just around the corner. Go Penguins!! Beat the Leathernecks. :D

Why would the NCAA men's Coordinator of Officials be at an IAABO meeting? Did Hank Nichols attend those meetings? :confused:

Ever met people from Ontario? :) Like TM or GS?

Hank always attended the meetings (because he was a member of IAABO) in his capacity as Rules Editor and always gave a presentation on the new rules. When Hank became Officials Coordinator, the person (oh my gosh I can't remember who that is right now, I am have a senior moment and am not at home with my rules books) who took his place as Rules Editor would give a presentation on the new rules. Barb Jacobs never came in her capacity as the women's Rules Editor, so Sally Bell (she was a member of IAABO too) would give the presentation or Hank would fill in if Sally could not attend.

MTD, Sr.

I have met and count as friends a number of Canadian basketball officials.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe you because you are a Penguin, I am not getting your connection to the IAABO Meetings and the NCAA Meetings. You lost me there Mark.

Also what I said was rather tongue and cheek. I just love how people talk big and bad here about what they their position, but likely would never go to those people and talk directly to them about their positions. I know when I had the opportunity to talk to Mary Struckoff about a mechanics issue I had the opportunity and I actually asked her for clarification.

Also the NCAA does not have any officials on the Rules Committee. These rules are made by only coaches who in most cases do not know how the rule should be applied that they just wrote. This is not as bad on the basketball side, but the football side there are rules created that make no sense and you can tell that officials never helped the committee with the writing of the rule. John has a right to tell his officials how to call the game. The Rulebook is not the end all be all of officiating the rules. If that was the case, why have camps or other trainings of officials if all you had to do is read a rulebook. If you do not like it, then do what you feel is best. But for those that work games under the NCAA, his opinion is very valid and I have no problem following it. And in reality this play is very rare and might not happen most of the season. Once again I love how people obsess over something that really is not a common occurrence. And if you do not work that level, why would you care what anyone says about those rules? I know when I hear how the NBA wants to do something; I do not lose a millisecond of sleep over how they call the game.

Peace

Regarding standing underneath the basket = automatic block

What if A2 is driving to the basket along the left baseline and gets past B2. B4 rotates to help B2 and establishes LGP directly underneath the basket. A2, thinking B4 is going to attempt to block the shot attempt, jumps from the left side of the lane, trying to get to the right side of the lane for a reverse layup. Automatic block?

I wonder if the original post in this thread was not related word-for-word. Is it possible that John Adams said (or meant) "when the ball has passed through the basket" rather than "when the ball has left the players hand" and is it possible that he meant to say that it is a no-call rather than a block?

Here is a quote from last year's NCAA men's POI's:

This year, the charge and block situations occurring at the basket area are
the points of emphasis. Any illegal contact that occurs at the basket area by
either the offensive or defensive player (block, charge, player control fouls)
shall be accordingly penalized as prescribed by the rules. Only when the
following occurs shall the penalty not be applied:

2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)

Seeing how LGP was established before A2 went airborne, unless B4 comes out of his verticle plane it sounds like a PC to me coach.

We really need Mr. Spelling Guy back. :(

Not really... your -errrr- you're (or should I say) you are doing one heck of a job filling in :D

But when he was NCAA coordinator of officials, he did not attend, right? I would not expect Mr. Adams to attend an IAABO meeting. Ed Bilik is now the rules editor, btw.

Rut:

I can't believe you would purposely misapply a rule just because our exalted ruler makes a nonsense statement about how a rule is to be applied. I hope that there are officials who have his ear and tell him the issue a mea culpa and move forward.

Long ago in a galaxy far away when Hank Nichols was the NCAA Men's Rules Editor and Dick Schindler was the NFHS Rules Editor, they would attend the IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Meeting and each would give a presentation and take question concerning the new rules for that school year and any other rules or mechanics question that was posed to them.

I know that Dick would answer any letter or telphone call and give rules interpretations of any official would wrote him or called him. I know, I exchanged letters with him and telephone calls with him concerning rules interpretations. He did not hide behind Mary's wall of pushing it off on state rules interpreters. Dick know and understood how important it was to have the same rule interpretation no matter what state in which the game was played. Hell, Hank would take phone calls from officials for rules interpretations too back in the day.

The fact is if John Adams really made the statement that MOfficial is attributing to him then somebody close to him needs to set him straight.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, Sr.

Yes he did. I have not attended the Rules Interpreters meeting for the last four years do to my position as in officer in our sons' H.S.'s athletic boosters club, meaning I am running the concession stand on Friday nights at football games. Hank is a long time member of IAABO so it is not unusual for him to attend this meeting anyway, especially this year because it is in New Jersey and Hank lives near Philadelphia, if my memory serves me correct.

MTD, Sr.

I disagree; players attempting reverse layups would be well defended by a player under the basket. It might work for a "rule of thumb," but to make it hard and fast is asinine.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref
We really need Mr. Spelling Guy back. :(
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

No, I can't fit into his shoes! There is just so much.

There were people that had the same ear of Hank in his interpretations and he did not seem to care. I can tell you from personal experience, John does not care what you or I think about his interpretation or philosophy. Believe me, he will tell you what he thinks in very explicit ways. ;) And I am sure he is very aware of what the rule is, but wants the game called a certain way.

And the NCAA Meeting was held in Chicago and now it is not anymore. Funny, both the NCAA Official Coordinators live in Indianapolis and now the meeting is there instead of Chicago. That was then and this is now.

The NF is very different than the NCAA. There are fewer schools across the country (which means fewer coaches, administrators and anyone else to deal with) than are in my state. At least at the Division 1 level there are only around 320 schools in basketball alone. That number is fewer if you include some other sports. In my state alone, there are over 700 schools. I do not think the NF wants to get involved in every possible situation that every school experiences (including the officials, which is another issue). And I do not know about you, but I never worked a game for Mary and likely never will (even when she ran my State Official’s Department). When Mary tried to standardize training with their little program, most states rejected that piece of crap before it was available for sale. It is clear the NF has little power to tell states what to do and what not to do. I am just surprised that guys like you have not realized that yet.

And what are you going to say when he does not give a rat's azz?

Peace

And two years ago I was at the NCAA Meeting in Indy when Yeast basically talked about philosophies that the rules did not cover and how to handle them. I did not see anyone then start challenging him on his opinions then and now. Also he said the CCA Book simply a guide and said that the book basically a bunch of mechanics that everyone could easily agree upon. Funny, if you were to say that on this board there would be mutiny. :D

Peace

The game is on the court, not in the book. The book is a summary of the game, attempting to describe the game and the way it is to be played but only so much can be put on paper without it becoming the Library of Congress. There will always be subleties, concepts and philosophies of the game that never get in the book. You can choose to call the game or call the book, your choice, but to call a good game, you need to know the game itself...in addition to the book.

MOfficial:

Based upon the fact that you made the above post at 08:03pmEDT. Can I assume that you heard John talk about his block/charge philosophy at the NASO Officiating Summit in Cleveland, Ohio.

MTD, Sr.