Kicking the basketball.

[steve23usa]

A friend that plays basketball with us made a call tonight that I thought was incorrect. I'm dribbling the ball and it accidentally bounces off my foot. He calls me for kicking the ball. I tell him he is crazy in that it wasn't kicked intentionally and I gained no advantage by doing it so there is no violation. He tells me that he is an Indiana High School Basketball ref and under IHSAA rules any time the ball touches the foot it is a violation. I know he is dead wrong concerning the rule in college or pro ball. Is the rule different at the high school level? I hardly doubt it, but I am not sure.

[BigDave]

It's only a kick if it is intentional.

Your friend "kicked" that call.

[BktBallRef]

Your friend is wrong.

NF 9-4
A player shall not travel with the ball, intentionally kick it, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.

[Mark Padgett]

Unless Indiana is using an exception to the NF rule on this point, your friend is a moron, er, I mean he's incorrect.

Here's one from the vault:

B1 sticks out his leg to deflect a pass from A1 to A2. The ball hits B1 right on the thigh. Dave calls a kick.

Howler monkey B: I thought a kick had to be from the knee down.
Dave: It was, coach. I can't help it if your player has tall knees.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to have an intense dislike for myself in the morning, but I am going to have to use a soccer analogy in how to apply the kicking rule in basketball.

Without going into detail, the application of the kicking rule is the same way as the handball rule is supposed to be applied in soccer.

First and foremost, whether the player or his team gained an advantage because of the balls contact with the player's leg or foot is not a factor.

What is important is, did the player deliberately use his/her foot or leg to play the ball. Notice I said that the player "used his/her limb to play the ball." If this is the case, then a kicking violation has occured.

If the ball played the player's foot or leg, then no violation can occur. A good example of this type of action is B1 is playing defense in a zone. B1 uses a shuffle step to move from one point on the court to another to cut of a passing lane. A1 attempts a bounce pass through the passing lane and the ball hits B1's foot has he is moving from one point on the court to another. B1 did not play the ball with his foot, the ball played his foot. Now if B1 kicked at the ball, that is a different story.

[w_sohl]

Just as Mark said (to put it simply) the player has to play the ball with their limb. Just because it hits the foot doesn't mean there was a kick, it could be like throwing a pass and the ball bounding off a defenders forearm, it just bounced off their body.

[Brian Watson]

I agree with padgett, none of us are ihsaa guys, so it is hard to blast said ref when we don't know if they tinkered with the rules or not. Now, 5 years ago that was not an IN exception, but hey, they killed single class ball, maybe they did this too. Or, it could have been the guy trying to cover his arse for blowing the call.

PS - I commend everyone beside my self for not pointing out an obvious opening by DeNucci to dive into the gutter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
PS - I commend everyone beside my self for not pointing out an obvious opening by DeNucci to dive into the gutter.

What did I do now?


P.S. I checked with two of my friends (yes I have friends) who officiate basketball in Indiana, and they told me that official who made the goofy ruling in the original post does not know what he is talking about because the IndianaHSAA has made no such ruling. And besides it is the NFHS that would have to make the final interpretation. But that is another discussion isn't it.

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

What did I do now?


P.S. I checked with two of my friends (yes I have friends) who officiate basketball in Indiana, and they told me that official who made the goofy ruling in the original post does not know what he is talking about because the IndianaHSAA has made no such ruling. And besides it is the NFHS that would have to make the final interpretation. But that is another discussion isn't it.

Technically, the NFHS does not have final authority on interps. State have final say, however, most state interptreters would go to the NHFS for direction, but they are not required to do so.

At least this is what the NHFS told me a few years ago when I tried to get an interp.

[BktBallRef]

Are we now going to qualify all answers with "...unless such-n-such state has changed the rule...?"

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

What did I do now?

I think Brian was referring to the opportunity to "go off" on low humor variations of using a "limb" to deflect the ball. I don't think he was criticizing your post - just making a reference to the possibility of jr. high school level jokes.

At least, that's how I took it.

Too bad he decided not to go there. It could have been fun, since that's about the level of my humor.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Brian Watson

Technically, the NFHS does not have final authority on interps. State have final say, however, most state interptreters would go to the NHFS for direction, but they are not required to do so.

At least this is what the NHFS told me a few years ago when I tried to get an interp.

Technically, it is the NFHS's responsiblity to make the final interpretation. There is only one rule, and one intepretation. And in the past few years there has been a tendency for the NFHS to not want to make a final interpretation, and the NFHS has been rightly criticized and shown the errors if its ways.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


Technically, it is the NFHS's responsiblity to make the final interpretation. There is only one rule, and one intepretation.

From the (unnumbered) page 3 of the NF 2001-2002 rules book (yes - they call it the "rules" book):

"Requests for basketball rules interpretations or explanations should be directed to the state association responsible for the hight school basketball program in your state. The NFHS will assist in answering rules questions from state associations whenever called upon."

Sounds to me like there could be 50 different interpretations of a rule if no state wanted to ask for help. YIKES!

[Brian Watson]

Mark P is correct on both accounts, a little frat humor about balls and flailing limbs (I was trying very hard to be good).

And second, you could, possibly have 50 interpretations of the same rule.

Basketball is pretty static, but this "loophole" is seen in other sports. I work with some people who travel the country working track meets in many states; with how those states interpret rules it is like a quarter-pounder in France, it is just a little different in each state.

Voleyball is the same way. Some states play 2 of 3 games side out scoring, 3 of 5 rally scoring, yada-yada.

In fact, now that I think of it, doesn't NY or CA or someone use a shot clock for HS ball? This would certainly fit this discussion.

The fed gives states a basic foundation and framework for states to build off of. But they are not the end all experts, they have no real power. In fact, if your states rule authority (here in OH it is the Asst. Commishes) had a radical view of a rule, you would have to live with it, the Fed won't step in.

[dblref]

We use the shot clock for private school girls games (HS level) in northern VA.