No Timeouts - end of the game
 

Team A has no TOs left ... Team A down 2 and tries to call time out ... do you grant it and then proceed with the tech or since you have knowledge that they have none left do you ignore the request?

Why would you not comply with a rule?

That's my question ... is that the rule?

This happened to me in a game and Team A was signalling for TO with 2 seconds left to my partner who was the trail ... he would no grant it ... I went to blow my whistle to signal the TO was acknowledged and the horn sounds -- he proceeds to ay game over! Team A has no more TOs ... right or wrong?

I thought it was wrong, but he stepped in and declared the game over ... nobody really argued.

Yes, it is the rule:

5-12-2: "Time-outs in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted . . . at the expense of a technical foul for each.

Does your partner also officiate football? In basketball, we only "ignore" a time-out request in a few circumstances:

1. live ball, the requesting team doesn't have control.
2. when requested before a foul has been reported.
3. before the opening jump ball.
4. if it's a successive time-out at the end of the 4th quarter/OT.

Who is he?

Peace

And we don't even ignore the time out request in Mark's number 2. We delay granting it until the foul has been reported and any associated activity, such as replacing a disqualified player.

Sounds as if your partner was just ready to get that game done. Out of curiousity, was that the last game or did you all have more to work?

Always grant the request. To deliberately ignore a rule compromises your integrity as an official. If a T becomes warranted, then so be it.

Having said that, you must be sure that the head coach was requesting the time out.

Right! Who knows, maybe Team B misses both FTs & Team A steals the throw-in at half court for the hail mary 3 & win by 1... it can be or should I say it could've been done.

An NCAA crew was suspended this year for an official "ignoring" a visual request made by a player for a timeout.

I think the conference's response is enough reason to call the timeout. I wouldn't call the technical at the spot of the timeout. I would wait until the table informs you that the team is out of timeouts.

Precisely why I never ask the table how many timeouts each team has. I have to grant the (proper) request anyhow. I don't count fouls or timeouts. Coaches are best for that.

I will, however, ask the scorers if their books match. I don't want to figure out later that Team A has a TO left by their math, but none available according to the Team B scorebook.

Thanks you to all ... that is exactly what I thought should have happened!

We've had this discussion on the forum before as to whose responsibility it is to know how many timeouts teams have left, whose responsibility it is to inform the benches/coaches....and at what level (10U, 12U, AAU, MS, HS, etc). But, for the most part, we agree - ya WHACK EM!

If the timeout is coming directly from a head coach, then you MUST grant it to him/her. If it's coming from a player and it's not loud enough for anyone to hear it except for you, I would probably think twice.

Really? We exercise our personal judgement when the rule is perfectly clear?

We always exercise our personal judgement even if the rule is perfectly clear. :D

What if the player said, "I DIDN'T CALL A TIME OUT, I said 'sideout'!" If the headcoach request for it, then it's a different case.

Your evaluator would also question your game-awareness. "Chi, you know White doesn't have any more time out, why did you grant it?" Your reply would be, "because I'm the only person in the entire gym that heard it." Not buying it!

Grant the time out if the player says it "loud enough" (now with that you really need to use your judgement) or if he/she signals the time out. Game tape will always back you up if the player signals it, but cannot prove that he said timeout.

First, I'll say I know you didn't "call" it you "requested" it & I granted it. If he persists with the stooopid "sideout" tactic, I'd whack him for lying :eek:
Now the opposition shoots 4 & possesion the rock.

Cool. If you were doing the 1993 NCAA championship game and Chris Webber quietly <b>asked</b> you for a TO, your philosophy would have been to ignore it. Know what? Your philosophy really, really needs to grow some balls.:)

That's terrible advice imo. Just call the game. Officials aren't supposed to influence the result of any game. We aren't supposed to insert our personal philosophies into any call that may give a team an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

Man you got an ego trip. This might work at the high school level but definitely not at the college level.

1) And if you ignore a perfectly clear rule, then your judgment is faulty.

2) I disagree completely with that statement also. I haven't met an evaluator yet that agrees with that philosophy either. That includes me. If I have an official come up with some lame excuse for not granting an excess TO request, then I gotta tell you that official is going back to middle school games. He just showed me that he doesn't have the testicular fortitude to call at any level higher than that. It has nothing to do with game awareness either. The official that called the "T" in the 1993 NCAA championship game sureashell had game awareness. He was aware that Michigan had no TO's left and he was also aware that the rules made him grant the TO request. Making up excuses not to make a righteous call has got absolutely nothing to do with game awareness.

That statement is complete and utter bullsh!t imo.

There's a reason that you're not doing NCAA championship games.

Who me? No sir, growing up where I did I've ALWAYS been a very humble person. And when I was struck in my face by a coach a couple months back, it humbled me even more...

They still use terms like "5 out" & "sideout" in the NCAAs??? Do they still scream "ball ball ball" when the dribble is picked up too???
Oh my...

Chris Webber made it loud and obviously enough for more than one officials to hear and notice it. I'm arguing that if I'm the only person in the entire gym that hears the timeout, I'm going to hold my whistle until he make it loud or obvious enough to grant it. WE must exercise our judgement that fits the game. This scenario has nothing to do with COURAGE.

btw, if you look at the video, after Chris Webber rebounds the bball, he committed a traveling violation. According to your theory, if the "officials aren't supposed to influence the result of the game," the new T should have called a traveling first, correct????" It looks to me that right there and then, a NCAA championship official didn't call a traveling and gave Michigan an "unfair advantage".

How come the officials didn't get any crap for not calling the travel violation? It is because he's exercising judgement that FITS THE GAME!!!!!!!!

Here's a link to that travelling and timeout

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NH1ujxNwrkA

Sorry, but if you fail to make any <b>CORRECT</b> and <b>APPROPRIATE</b> call, you lack <b>both</b> good judgment <b>and</b> courage imo.

And also imo you won't get to the NCAA D1 level, and stay there, if you make up weak excuses for not making the correct call.

Just some advice for any official that agrees with Mwanr1...take it fwiw....it is <b>NOT</b> a good idea to tell your evaluator after the game that you heard a legitimate TO request, but that you ignored it because you knew his team was out of TO's and the request wasn't discernable to everybody in the crowd. Not a good idea imo.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. Mwanr1.

The officials actually took a ton of a crap for missing that traveling call. That was, plain and simple, a blown call. However, it wasn't a <b>deliberately</b> blown call. Failing to honor a legitimate TO request is deliberately blowing the call. That's one heckuva big difference.

Apples and oranges.

Unfortunately in this business, even though deep down we want to do the CORRECT AND APPROPRIATE thing, we cannot always exercise it. Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the b>CORRECT</b> and <b>APPROPRIATE</b> call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

In my honest opinion and correct me if I"m wrong, I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. Am I going to whack him? NO because I'll NEVER win that battle against. HE/SHE will lie up the a55 and say "I never said that." My word against their word - they win.

Second scenario is different because he/she said it loud enough. Am I going to whack him? HELL FREAKING YES.

Call me crazy but I'm Ting the coach in both scenarios. Not sure what your example is trying to show, but I don't think it helps your cause.

One would have to be in that situation to actually say, but I think it's fair not only to whack the coach but run their a$$ as well... Flagrant Technical or stick him twice:
1 - language
2 - sexual advances

Maybe you should stop now, your credibility is deteriorating with every stroke of the keys.

BTW, thanks for touching back on the "ego trip" accusation. Real stand-upish of ya :rolleyes:

I was thinking the same thing. But this is turning into a fun thread, why don't we just call a do-over & let him try again.

F you? Flagrant technical in both scenarios, no matter how it happens.

See how times change. Nowadays, college officials deliberately blow 20 traveling calls per game. It's true, it's true.

http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...9&postcount=13

Not sure how long you've been officiating, but I promise you lots of abuse in the future once word gets around that you have ZERO ba11s and are willing to take that from a coach at ANY volume.

My honest opinion is that I personally would never dream of letting a coach, player, or anyone connected to a team <b>EVER</b> get away with saying "f**k you" to me. Under <b>any</b> circumstances. And if an official working for me ever told me that he ignored a coach saying "f**k you" because that coach did it quietly, then that official would never do another meaningful game for me if I had anything to do about it. If an official ignores something like that, then that official can be intimidated....and the coach knows it.

That's my honest opinion.

I'd like to think he's been at it for a while since he knows what works in HS versus College. Or maybe he's from SoCal where it only takes 3 years to get a DI schedule. Might not stick but you can get in :D

One thing is for sure, Mwanr1 doesn't seem to think too highly of things only the officials hears.

I hope he doesn't share the same philosophy for things that only the ref sees.

Can't make that off ball call... nobody saw it but me.
I didn't call the OOB violation because I thought I was the only one who saw it.

I think the crew needs to be aware of the timeout situation. I always keep track of when a team burns both it's 30 sec. timeouts so you immediately send the teams into a full rather than take the time to ask the coach (who usually is worried about his team once you grant the timeout). An aside, in my first 4 year college game, the coach did this and I sat there waiting and got no indication before granting a full timeout. This of course burned the first media timeout which pissed the coach off and was not a good start for me this night! Just something to think about moving forward......

By rule in the NCAA,

Rule 2, Section Art. 15. Notify a team and its head coach when a team takes its final
allowable charged timeout

Meaning, the crew should know when a team takes a timeout and the head coach should be aware his/her team is out of timeouts. We has a crew need to be 100% sure that a team is asking for a timeout.... many teams have plays that sound similar (especially in a packed gym). If this is the case a conversation should come up during a dead ball amongst the crew....... in summary we should never be surprised by something that happens in the game.

Chi,

If I see it, then I'll NEVER EVER IGNORE it. Remember - tapes don't lie. Most of the time coaches drop F bomb on officials because they are losing and use dirty tactics to screw with our career. They are given far more opportunities to screw up than us. If we are smart enough to not let them bait us, then we'll outlast them.

As a coach, when my team is down by 20 and being screwed by the refs who are cheating and making my team lose, I really appreciate it when a ref allows me to whisper stuff in his ear as he runs by. I remember one game when the refs made my team miss 14 out of 22 freethrows, and I whispered to him "you punk b*tch ref you f*ckin should have called a f*ckin lane violation cuz we don't f*ckin miss easy a$$ f*ckin freethrows this sh!t is f*ckin b*ll$h!t you p*$$y b*tch moron". I said it politely and only he could hear, so he let it slide.

In a true story, in a summer league game several years back, my team made a layup to pull within 1, 5 seconds or so left on the clock. I have no TO's left. As the ball goes in, I start to loudly request a time out. The new L official in front of me looks over his shoulder inquisitively and does not grant my request. I keep requesting my time out with increasing urgency. With about 1.3 left on the clock, the other official (trail) from across the court on the end line grants my TO, as he had seen me requesting it the whole time. He also puts the clock back at 4 seconds. Other team makes one misses one. We deflect the inbounds pass, pick up the loose ball and one of their defenders fouls my PG as he is heaving a 30 foot runner at the horn. 3 FTs, we win the game. As the refs head to the seats behind the scorers table to prepare for the next game, the trail ref smacks the other ref behind the head and says "give him his time out"... haha...

How the hell does the coach win here, you T'ed him and the other team is shooting two and gets the ball. If that is winning in your book, I wanna play on another team. Also, if your assignor is worth a damn, he'll believe you long before he believes a coach.

Coming from a coach, I might buy it (unlikely, though). From a player, though? I've never heard one of them shout "sideout" during play.

I'd like to think that my evaluator would, I dunno, back me up for following the rule here. Game awareness is knowing how many TOs a team has left and knowing how many fouls each team has committed. Game awareness does NOT include changing your calls because of those numbers!

If you're worried about the 'consequences' of a he said-she said with some teenager over a timeout request, you might be in the wrong business.

Let's see here. It's just you and a coach in the parking lot after the game. He takes out a gun and kills you. According to your logic, he shouldn't be prosecuted because no one but you were killed. Yeah - that makes sense.

BTW - what's a scenaior?

FWIW, I'd probably T the coach in both cases.

That said, comparing this to the TO situation isn't even apples and oranges - it's more like comparing pomegranates and fried chicken. Unsporting technical fouls are ALWAYS judgement calls on the part of the official(s) involved. Whether the player/coach requested a timeout is a fact, pure and simple.

I don't understand how this was your fault. :confused: Are you saying that any time-out taken before the 1st media time-out of either half should be assumed to be a 30-second T/O?

Mwanr1-

I believe you are taking good advice that you have heard from accomplished officials, and misinterpreting that advice.

You have some idea about situational game awareness, and that is a good thing. There are those that argue that you don't need to know things like the number of timeouts remaining, the team/player foul situation, and even the score of the game. That is bad advice. Any information about your game that you can be aware of will make you do a better job on the game. And I do agree that not all situations have to be handled exactly the same every single time they occur, but don't overthink the situation at hand.

As you said- tapes don't lie. If there is a player visibly requesting a time-out when they don't have one left, and it's obvious you have seen the request, you better get it.

There ARE situations where this can be handled differently- let's say during a dead ball, where a player walks up to you, and says, "time out." I might respond "are you sure- you don't have any left."

Same with your response to a coach. It is definitely true there is a difference between what a coach does if you are the only person to hear their comments vs. a coach that everyone in the gym can hear. I have had situations where I have had a coach curse up a blue streak right behind me and I have ignored it, and I have had situations where a demonstative, wildly gesticulating coach never uttered a swear word, and I have called a technical. I'm not a believer in "magic words," or "automatic techs."

But if a coach is directly addressing me, and manages to get the phrase "f*** you" out, that is about as close to automatic as I get- and it doesn't really matter to me who else heard it. Your credibility is shot if you don't take care of business here. Do you really think that story won't get out in the coaching circles? "And then I told the guy that he could go f*** himself, and he STILL didn't even do anything!"

Not sure I should resurrect this old thread, but I read something recently that related directly to the original topic. I'm reading a book on "Great NBA Finishes", games that had great comebacks or unusual endings. One of the games was Game 5 of the 1976 NBA Finals. This was the Suns/Celtics triple OT game. Here's why I'm posting about it:

I just thought this was interesting to see both sides. Here's an NBA referee who thought he was helping the game, the opposing team thought the game was taken away from them. Not sure if anyone will find it interesting, but it relates directly to the thread, and many of us didn't actually see that game and remember it.

That entire passage is quoted from a Boston Globe report by Bob Ryan, just to credit the original author.

From the NFHS Basketball Handbook under Chronology of Basketball Rules:
1978 -- "officials' must grant a time-out request, even though it is excessive."

The mistake that seems to be being made here is that people are presuming the coach doesnt know he or she is out of time outs and by not granting the timeout we are somehow saving them from an unintended T. Problem is, there are times when the coach is doing it on purpose and it makes sense. Thus the rule is as it is--you see it, you confirm it is a request for TO, you grant it. Which is also why you simply cant embrace the advice that you should not pay attention to time outs. In fact, just the opposite is true (I hope the experienced refs will agree) that you should definately have the game awareness and situational awareness to know time outs and fouls. The good practice at the end of the game is to tell coaches how many they have remaining. That takes you out of teh judgement call of wondering whether they are making a mistake or not. You see it, grant it.

Agree 100% to this point.

This I disagree with very strongly (and I believe that most experienced officials do too).
Only inform the coach when the team has used its final time-out. Other than that an official can have an awareness of how many and of what type remain, but stating such to a coach only exposes the official to a HUGE problem if he is mistaken.
Bottom line stick with "see it/hear it, grant it" and stay away from giving extra information to the coaches. Managers and assistants can communicate with the table for that. Afterall, that's their job.

Agree. We ain't scorekeepers. There's no need for us to do their job either.

"Excuse Me Coach, That Was Your Last Time Out" ...
 

Amen.

As a scorekeeper at a D-III school for the women's and men's teams, I will tell the officials when a team is out of timeouts and when a team has one left. Regarding situations when a team has one left, sometimes the officials ask for this information; otherwise, I volunteer it. When I mention that a team has one left without being asked, some seem to appreciate being told, some don't seem particularly interested. And there are times when I'm asked by an official to provide the information for each team, regardless of how many timeouts are left.

While I see some of the officials several times a year, my memory isn't good enough to remember from one time to the next if an official seemed to want to know when a team was down to one timeout. So I provide that information and let the official use it (or not use it) as he or she sees fit.

Does this seem appropriate? Would it be a good idea to ask the official who checks the book before the game begins how this should be handled? Or it would be best to only provide the information about timeouts left if and when I'm asked? (as long as I always remember to tell the officials when a team has used its last timeout). Thanks in advance.

I say do what works best for you. Telling the officials that a team only has 1 TO may be a subconcious way of keeping your own head in the game. It may also trigger the opposing scorekeeper to check his/her book and make sure you 2 are on the same page (pun intended). But don't break your routine if it hasn't brought you any problems so far.

Me? I don't tell a team how many TO's they have left until they reach 0. But it doesn't bother me if a scorekeeper provides extra information. I store it away and now I know that the next time that team's uses a TO that they are done. Or if the game goes to OT I know that the team has 2 left.

Nevada, other than disagreeing about telling them the number of TOs remaining, do you agree that it is good awareness to know fouls and timeouts? Or do you just want to know when they are on their final time out?

I'm interested to hear this comment, and I appreciate your prior one as well.

I can certainly relate that (though I havent taken a poll) that my experience is that the other varsity officials up here in North Idaho all near the end of the game will at a time out or some other stoppage, check with the book and clock to make sure everything is right and also do a time out check and communicate time outs remaining to both coaches. But now that I think about it, I am not sure that this practice is as widespread as I believe it to be. And I certainly trust your input if you think this is a bad idea.

Now you've got me thinking...

I see no problem with gathering information and making sure the books jibe. But what is the purpose of telling a coach how many times-out they have? It can't be preventive officiating b/c telling a coach he/she has 3 T-O's doesn't prevent anything.

That is an excellent question. Its just somethign I have always done and the officials I work with do. I've never even questioned it before. But I respect the people here and I am certainly going to think about that...

I was just curious...figured you picked it up from the folks who taught you but I was just wondering if anyone ever said why they did it.

Finding a convenient time in the last few minutes to confirm with the scorer that there are no bookkeeping mistakes is an excellent idea. The officiating crew does not want to be hanging around on the floor at the end of a tight ballgame to make sure of this. When I have this brief chat in the last couple of moments, I always let the scorer know that I will make eye contact after the final horn and if all is good to give me a thumbs up or a head nod. This allows me to approve the final score and know that there aren't any mistakes to be fixed and also lets my crew get the heck out of there quickly.

As for your other question, my personal opinion is that the more information that you have the better job that you can do officiating the game. Therefore, I try to know how many time-outs each team has taken and of what type (our crew actually breaks this up: R has fulls for both teams, U1 30s for home, U2 30s for visitor), how many team fouls there are, what the score is, how much time is on the clock, and yes, even how many fouls there are on individual players. The last one is a bit controversial and opinions will vary. Mine happens to be that I want the extra information as one never knows when it could be important, such as when a scoring error pops up and the R has to make a decision.

Finally, I will again state that all of this info is for ME and my duties. I do not pass any of it along to the coaches and players. Nor do I normally let my partners know. That kind of info just overloads a lot of officials and doesn't help their game. So I don't burden them with it. If something comes up, I can be of assistance. Of course, I do have partners who are like me and we will share this info during the game.

So in summary, track all of the info that you wish during a game, but keep it to yourself. ;)

I also agree that this is not a big deal. I do not like going to the table to constantly find out information the teams already have access to. If nothing is going on, I might go over to the table, but likely near the end of the game I am talking with my partners about the situation in the game.

Peace

Why do you need to know how many fouls a player has committed? j/k :D

But, if a team calls a timeout and you know they have none left you still grant it - but a technical is charged correct?

If a team requests a timeout, then yes, you are to grant their request. If the team has used all of their free timeouts, then yes, this timeout is still granted at the cost of a technica foul.

You can keep track on how many fouls each player has at any point in the game. You live in Nevada. You must have made a fortune card counting blackjack at casinos. :eek:

I'm not rainman, but I'm not bad.

Time Out Administration
 

In short yes. I did not know this either however this is how it was explained to my crew by a clinician this past weekend.

One of my partners went near the huddle to find out if he wanted a full/30. The clinician explained that its not a good idea to get near the huddle at the beginning of a timeout, (makes sense, coach is usually upset at something/someone).

Beyond that he went to explain that in a college game with media timeouts, 99/100 times the coach will always want a 30 sec timeout. The only time he will ask for a full is when he knows he's out of 30's.

Hopefully 1 day I'll have to worry about such things. :)

Yabut - you're still supposed to check.

I've seen games where the official asked the coach (and assistants) repeatedly. When he didn't get a response, he told me to charge it as a 60-second TO. The coach was none-too-happy about that, but it was correct by rule.

If the coach does not indicate the time out length they want, I will ask them once.... maybe twice in a loud gym or depends how I feel. If they don't respond they get charged with a full. That way I dont stand there repeatedly asking and looking like a fool. IMO
One of the best things about FIBA rules is all To's are 1 minute in length and they dont request it to me the coach has to make the request at the scorers bench.

That's because the coach only gets one full (60 second) time-out in a typical TV game. Each team gets 4 30's (up to 3 carry over to the second half) and only one 60-second time-out. So you can bet that the coach wants to save that full time-out until crunch time when he needs a little extra time. (For example, in the last 30 seconds of regulation in a national championship game when you want to make sure your players know to give a foul before the offense gets to midcourt. Oh wait, I guess Memphis didn't do that. . . :D )

Besides that, the first time-out request of the second half automatically becomes a media (75-second) time-out. So you know the coach isn't going to use his/her full time-out at that point.

Should you ask anyway? Probably. But I know several guys who don't.

When at the table, I wish media TOs were only 75 seconds long!

That said, I'd rather be reffing the games with the 2-3 minute long TV timeouts. ;)

Well, the rulebook mentions 75 seconds, but I guess they can be lengthened, based on the media contract. Good point.

Boy, Scrapper - you'll never make it on the East Coast.

I hope you're out in California. They seem to let anyone move up the ranks there. :rolleyes:

I take offense, I currently live in CA and I think you are way off base, at least for my area.

The reference was to some forum member here who, I think, claimed that Southern Cal referees have excellent training; and he was working Dx ball in only his third season. IIRC, his attitude was that SoCal officials were of a different breed than officials in other parts of the country.

You can imagine how our esteemed members took to that BS.......

The statement made was that <b>all</b> SoCal officials were ready for college ball by the end of their third year.

Maybe w_sohl is from NoCal and he didn't get the memo.:D

Central CA, and while I think this is the best area I have worked in (Michigan, Illinois and Indiana) in that the good ole boy system is almost non existent. The SoCal official that thinks that is out of his mind. Sure they have some great ball down there, but that by no means makes them ready by year three. Either you are ready or your not. Thanks for the clarification, I ma no longer offended... :p