LGP on Airborne Shooter

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seriously, I think 10.6.1 SITUATION C says it all. I can't believe that MTD Sr. is having trouble with this situation. His posts, on this Forum, and on the NFHS forum are usually right on target, and I consider him to be a reliable source of information.

Must be playing devil's advocate and trying to get what he sees as weak wording changed in the rules. No one could seriously argue that an airborne shooter be required to avoid a player who was not there before they went airborne... huge disadvantage for the shooter otherwise.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MTD on the other board

Of course the thing to remember is that in 37 years of officiating basketball I have never seen a defender move the correct way to maintain a LGP once his opponent became airborne. It is my opinion that the ability of the brain to process the information and so that the defender can move per the rules just ain't there.

I think I speak for us all when I say "HUH?" It could be worse. That bigseth guy could follow us over here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It could be worse. That bigseth guy could follow us over here.

We could leave a trail of breadcrumbs. Then the birds would eat them and ... Wait. That's Hansel and Gretel, not bigseth and Gretel. As Emily used to say, "Never mind".

[Mark Dexter]

The rule may be poorly worded (although, if you look closely, it says "legal position" must be obtained before A1 goes airborne, not LGP), but the casebook play that Jurassic posted is plain as day. I don't see how anyone could argue this.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.MTD, Sr.

Very interesting. I haven't completely processed this yet, but it makes me go "Hmm?". Nice counterpoint MTD, Sr.

This epic saga continues ...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very interesting. I haven't completely processed this yet, but it makes me go "Hmm?". Nice counterpoint MTD, Sr.

This epic saga continues ...

Billy, if a defender moves backward, they still remain in the exact same path that the shooter established when that shooter jumped. The defender is NOT moving INTO the path of the shooter.

Apples and oranges....and irrelevant to the play being discussed.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

True, however, in this situation B1 is absorbing the contact by A1 this is nothing wrong there.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

Right, but here B1 is not moving INTO A1's path. Apples and oranges.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Doesn't really matter how much tweaking you do on these plays - the rules are clear. Once the shooter goes airborne, you can't move underneath him/her or into his/her landing area. Well, you can, but it's gonna be a block called on you.

Kinda wish this one had stayed over on the NFHS forum...it was silly there and is silly here.

[Camron Rust]

BLOCK!

The only thing the defender can do after a shooter has jumped is jump straight up or move in such a way that it doesn't improve their position. I'd let B1 move sideways ONLY if B1 was directly in A1's path already and the sideways movement was either neutral or was taking B1 out of A1's path.

[lpneck]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.

I will agree that this play could be ruled as a foul against A1, as B1 has NOT lost legal guarding position in this situation, which is why it is completely different than your other scenario.

[Kelvin green]

Are we missing Basketball fundamentals here?

Fundamental states that everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor.

The spot is determined at moment offensive player jumps and is entitled to come down

Defender slides laterally and takes spot away

This is a foul. Always has been always will be.

Two playes cannnot occupy the same space at once. The offensive player is occupying it. By the defensive player taking that spot he has displaced the offender from his legally entitled spot...


BLOCK!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Fundamental states that everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor.

Not Billy Packer!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Woody:

I did not post a diatribe on the NFHS Board. I admitted up front that my post would be long. I quoted the complete NFHS and NCAA definitions for guarding.


Tony:

I am suprised at your language.


Moving on:

Read Articles 3 and 4 of NFHS R4-S23. Nothing in those two articles prohibits a defender, B1, from moving to maintain a legal guarding position against an airborne player, A1, as long as the B1's LGP was obtained before A1 became airborne and if contact occurs, B1 was not moving toward A1 when contacts occur.

I NEVER (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) said that a defender can jump in front of an offensive player any time and it will NEVER be a blocking foul. If B1 does not have a LGP against A1 before A1 became airborne then, OF COURSE, B1 is guilty of a blocking foul if B1 takes a position in front of A1 while A1 is airborne and contact occurs while A1 is airborne.

Below are the four plays (Play D is the play that is causing all of the hand wringing, but I posted the plays in a specific order to lay the foundation for why the rules support a ruling of a foul against A1 in Play D.) that I posted on the NFHS Forum:

Lets see what type of foul occurs when B1 has obtained/established a legal guarding position against A1 (who has player control of the ball) and A1 dribbles the ball directly toward B1.

Play A: A1 dribbles toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play B: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play C: A1 dribbles toward B1 but changes direction so as to go around B1. B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving obliquely into A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne. BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.

The specific NFHS (NCAA and FIBA rules agree) rule citations are:

NFHS R4-S23-A3c: After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

NFHS R4-S23-A4b: Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball: If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

Article 3c makes no distinction between an offensive player who is airborne or NON-airborne when the defender is MOVING TO MAINTAIN a LGP. It does state that if the defender is moving TOWARD the offensive player, the defender is responsible for contact that occurs.

Article 4b states that a defender must OBTAIN his LGP before the offensive player becomes airborne.

There are only two questions that the official must ask and answer:

1) Did the defensive player obtain a LGP before the offensive player became airborne?

If the asnwer to (1) is YES, then the official must ask the next question:

2) Was the defensive player moving TOWARD the airborne offensive player when contact occurs?

If the asnwer to (2) is YES, then the defensive player is responsible for the contact. If the answer to (2) is NO, then the offensive player for the contact.

Everybody is applying a rule (NFHS R4-S23-A5) that applies to a defensive player who has NOT obtained a LGP to a play where the defensive player has ALREADY obtained a LGP.

MTD, Sr.