Plays...
 

I know we all miss calls but I just want to bring into question these plays. everybody talks about NBA guys missing "obvious" plays, well what about some of these. And before any of this great debate starts I would like to say that I believe that nba officials should be held to a higher standard and IMO they are.

Here are the plays:

I don't know about the second play, but the first play is blatantly obvious and 2 officials have a shot at this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKHf00juP18

Is this not an obvious travel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7DjZ...eature=related

What's illegal about this player's position?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mILwQctYLw

I think everybody remembers this one! I am sorry, some might say a bump is a bump but I just don't think this is enough especially with the clock so close to going off and this kid not even having a shot at...well... the shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No5hnQ0JjUA

Let the discussion begin?

Bad calls are going to happen. Should NBA officials be held to a higher standard? That can be debatable. But you should also think that officials are human as well, they are going to make mistakes just like everyone else will. In my opinion an official will never cause a team to lose the game. If you think about it, unless a team makes every shot, doesnt turn the ball over, and does absolutely everything right to win that game, they are going to win and it will not come down to an officials so called "bad call." Everyone is human and everyone is going to make mistakes.

Speak for yourself, grasshopper. :p

The first two plays are obvious missed calls. No excuses possible....especially at the D1 level.

The third play....I've watched that play dozens of times and I still haven't seen an angle that would convince me of the correct call- one way or the other. In the first view it looks like the defender might have leaned sideways out of his vertical plane at the last second, causing the contact. I couldn't tell for sure because the camera panned upward to go with the shot, but it very briefly looked that way. A block <b>may</b> have actually been the right call....emphasis on "may". That's the kind of call where you'd like to be able to ask the calling official what he saw on the play.

We beat the fourth call to death in a past extensive thread. Iirc, the consensus was that the call <b>had</b> to be made because the admitted minimal contact forced the dribbler OOB. You can't ignore the OOB call, so the official really didn't have much choice other than to call a foul. Also iirc, the Big East backed up the call later as being correct.

Jmo.

Agree completely. I always say that traveling is my toughest call, but the guy changed his pivot foot 4 times.

Agree again.

And I agree yet again. The only thing that makes this even a debatable call is the clock. It's obviously a foul to me because the contact forced the dribbler to step out of bounds. I'd love to have a force-out here, but there's no such thing anymore. Yes, it would've been great if the ref had hesitated for 2 tenths of a second. But he called the contact that he saw. It's not his fault the defender made a stupid play.

I Can Describe That Call In Ten Words ...
 

Name That Call (New Game Show)

This is a great way to explain the call. I thought the same thing back when it happened. Scrapper1 describes this call in only ten words, and it can't be explained better than that.

Agree...can't tell much about the contact from the video. However, the signal made was a hold, not a block. So, I'm guessing the call was for one of the defenders getting arm to arm contact as the shooter went up....but, again, the video was so poor it was hard to tell.

Like everybody else, I'm having difficulty locating the foul here. But why is the L making this call? It's across the paint. The C had nothing on this play. Unless the C is screened from the contact, and from the reaction of the players it appears the foul was called on the defender closest to the C, which the L would have to look through 2 other bodies to see. IMHO, the L has no business making this call.

The travell is just stupid, should've been called no question about it.
The first video. Well the OOB play is not good but the lead is to close. I've seen it before and I've been there, if you don't back away in that situation you will miss it. Why nobody else stepped in and called that I do not know though, the trail should've been able to make that call without for example.
The second call (elbow) is also due to an error by the lead. He follows the ball insted of watching the players closest to him. That's an error I think we all make though, it's not good but it will happen.

The blocking foul: I think they could've just dropped that and went with a no call. I do realise why the official calls it though becuse from the second angle it's impossible to say if the contact is legal or if the defender uses his side to initate it. Like I said I think they should just've ignored it and played on.

The last play has to be called, I agree with what has already been posted that even though it's just a small bump it forces the dribbler out of bounds and therefore creates a significant advantage for the fouling player. It's not a call you'd love to make but it has to be made, and that's what we're payed for so I don't think there's much more to say about it.

Wow nice videos, some of those calls are just bad. I wonder if the official would ever consider using replays to make the game better. Just a thought

Could you elaborate your proposal?

Replays meaning watching videos of the play, like what they do in the NFL. The coach can question a play and ask the ref to check it out on tape and then make a final decision. Its just a thought

The NFL does not allow replay for judgment calls and penalties. IOW, replays wouldn't have helped. College basketball does, in fact, allow replay review to resolve timing issues and three vs. two points.

Allowing replay reviews for fouls, travels, and other penalties would not make the game better.

In regards to the blocking foul let me first say, there is absolutely positively no doubt in my mind that this should be a no call regardless of time and score or whatever else. Not saying you should use this as your whole equation but you have to know time and score here. It's a 2 point ball game and this kid is not affected in the least by this, what you could barely even call a slight bump or graze. He hits the shot and its tied, but no instead we have a possible 3 point play. Now if this were a legitimate guys to the floor or just one guy to the floor block/charge play then i might be ok with a foul even in this situation, but imo you cannot give a guy a cheapie like that and put him at the line to win the ball game. That's like calling a handcheck with 1 second left or calling a force out with .1! haha.... oh wait.... that happened!

ok I've went back and watched several different youtube videos of the georgetown/villanova game. It does look like the kid steps out of bounds, but here is my thoughts and breakdown of the play:

The kid gets bumped at .9 then it looks like his foot is out of bounds at .4. You're telling me that this D1 referee doesn't have a patient enough whistle to wait, at most, .9 seconds to whistle an OOB or a foul and declare an overtime. I'm a true believer in the rules, but I'm also a true believer of doing what is right for the game and I put that first above my crew, then my crew comes in second, and I come in last. I don't believe that this was right for this game. These two teams had obviously battled it out (the score was 53 to 53), especially on both teams defensive end. To call a foul such as that one does not entail doing what is right for the game. Now whether the contact by the kid was legitimate illegal contact... that is up for debate. IMO he stops short of contact, but it's just a play full of what ifs? What if he doesn't step on the line, does Bob Donato have anything? What if Brent Barry had just jumped into Fisher when he was in mid air floating toward him? This my friends is why we all have the hardest sport to officiate in the world, I do believe.

Here's what I was taught and what I believe. If you don't make the same call the same way throughout the game, regardless of the score, then you, not the players, are deciding the outcome of the game. It's a simple, logical concept but I can't even count the number of officials who disagree with this philosophy.

Here's an example. With just a few seconds left, it's a one point game. B1 bumps A1, who is dribbling the ball, in the backcourt. You've called this amount of contact a foul the entire game but now, because of the "game situation" you choose not to call it because the contact was not especially "hard". We've all seen an official do something similar numerous times. Let me ask you - if this happens, who is deciding the outcome of the game - the players or the officials? The answer should be obvious, but I know there's tons of you out there who would pass on the call, and there's tons of you out there who think that's the right thing to do.

What block? A block wasn't called. A hold (or perhaps a hand check was).

Aside form that, the video we saw is so fuzzy that you can't possibly conclude that there was or wasn't some foul in there. When the shooter cut through traffic, he might have gotten whacked across the arm or had someone hanging onto his arm. Can't tell from the video but that seems to be what the Lead's signal implies.

And if he doesn't, the other team and media will go on and on about how the ref missed the OOB call.

1) Yup.

2) Yup, and it then gets posted on youtube exactly the same as the missed OOB call from the Duke-Belmont game was in play #1.

Place the blame where it lies. Had an 8th grade boys game years ago. Team A ties the score with just a couple of seconds left in the game. Team B quickly inbounds. B1 breaks deep, guarded by A1. B2 throws a long pass into the frontcourt which B1 catches near the sideline. A1 tries to deflect the ball and clobbers B1. I have a whistle, and the clock stops showing 0:00, and we hear a tiny snippet of buzzer. B1 has 2 to make 1 to win the game. He makes the first. Coach A has a screaming fit...........................directed entirely at his player "WHY WERE YOU EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!"


Bilas: "There is no foul here. You don't call that."

Question for Mr. Bilas: WHY WAS HE EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!

Ok well I believe there is a difference in an obvious "clobber" and a "rub". Once again was the georgetown play a foul? that's up for debate. It's def. a b!tch of a play.

What would the alternative have been to calling a foul? The player stepped OOB, do we ignore that also? (ps: I'm sure I'm rehashing the same argument made in the original thread)

Idk, whether you believe it is right or wrong I would have called an OOB call about .5 seconds late, so I'm not ignoring the violation I'm just calling it late and letting the horn go off, so you are not ignoring anything.

Whatinthehell are you talking about..."allowing" the horn to go off so you don't have to make a call??? :eek: :eek: Wow...in the words of one of my esteemed assignors - "Time to grow a pair, pal."

That's not very professional. Hope he's not thin-skinned.

OH don't worry I have more than my share of "a pair". In fact mine are so big I have room for yours too. haha

I think if the ref waits for the step OOB anyway the horn goes off unless he can react to the OOB within .4 seconds.

To me, this is the perfect example of how an official can determine the outcome of a game. The defensive <B>player</B> makes contact, the <B>player</B> that was contacted clearly steps OOB, and the <B>official</B> decides to ignore or purposely make a call late so that neither <B>team</B> can complete the play, including the appropriate penalties involved.

Why wouldn't you want to let the <B>players</B> decide the game, instead of inserting your influence by ignoring what the <B>players</B> have done?

My prayers have been answered. Here's someone who actually gets it. Thank you.

Uh, oh...Mark agrees with me...maybe I should reconsider? :eek: :D

Well, let me re-phrase slightly. I do understand we should not be Rule Book Ronnies and look for the snot hanging off every plumber's nose. (Geeze, how many bad analogies can I fit in one sentence?) But there also seems to be a line of thinking that we should not call anything but the "obvious", because any call we make is the official deciding the game, not the players. Well, if we make the proper calls, the players are, in fact, deciding the game by their actions, legal and illegal. Any proper call we do not make is the official deciding the game.

In this particular play, if the bump happened in the middle of the court in the 1st half, we could discuss all day whether it should be a foul. We could even argue whether this particular bump near the sideline should've been a foul. But we cannot ignore both the bump and violation, especially since the violation occured before the clock expired.

Agree completely.

Bottom line--you have 3 options:
1) call the foul.
2) ignore the foul and call the violation.
3) ignore the foul and also don't call the violation.

If you ignore the foul and call the violation, you just screwed the offensive team. If you ignore the foul and don't call the violation, you just screwed the defensive team. The only way that you don't screw anybody is to just call what happened.

So in your opinion what do you have? What does everybody have if both are getting screwed? Like I said its a B**CH OF A PLAY!

Exactly what I posted above.......

You call what happened. Yes, there was minimal contact. But that minimal contact forced a violation. It's the same as a defensive bump causing a player holding the ball to lose their balance and travel. The only call possible is a foul.