Reporting numbers after a foul
 

At camp this last weekend an evaluator corrected me on my verbal communicating of numbers when reporting fouls. I always say “white two – one” or “green one – three” while signaling in unison. He said I should be reporting the number as a whole, i.e. “white twenty one” or “green thirteen”. I guess I’m OK with that. However, when reporting numbers in the teens, it seems awkward. Verbalizing “green thirteen” while signaling a one and then a three doesn’t feel right.
What do you guys do?

I report the player's number. Is the player's number "1-3"? No. It's 13. So I say "thirteen". I used to say "1-3" like you. It was actually Bktballref on this forum who first brought the difference to my attention. It made sense to me and I've been reporting the number as a whole ever since then.

If you say the entire number properly, i.e. "twelve" or "thirteen", there is less chance of the scorer marking the foul down for the wrong player, such as number 1. While I agree that it's not a factor on 14 (the scorer might act on just hearing the first part of the number which is a number itself), since it is a factor on all the other numbers it's best to be consistent.

I say "one-three." I do not like to say "thirteen, fourteen, and fifthteen" because if the scorer (or other table personnel) do not see exactly what you report, when they hear the "teen" part of the number that can cause further confusion. I always have said it this way and only once have been told to say it another way in camp. And that camp was not a big time camp and the clinician that told me to say "thirteen" was really new at his particular level and was repeating what someone had wanted him to do. The veteran clinicians (at the higher college levels) that have been around seem to not care one way or the other what you say as, long as you are clear.

Peace

JRutledge brought up an interesting point. Since we have no way of measuring this, I just want to get a perspective of what you think. Do scorekeepers rely on hand signals or listening to the numbers when recording fouls?

I'll start first by saying I never EVER pay attention to the referee's hand signal when recording fouls. I always look and hear what the ref says. But then most of the time I'm watching the game while score-keeping so I'm usually clear on who committed the foul.

I think they use both. There are times when they probably cannot hear very well. I am sure there are other times they hear part of what you say and personally I want to avoid the people only hearing the end of the number. I also feel that part of this has to do with your signals and how clear they are.

Peace

There have been times when I've said "thirteen", "fourteen", or "fifteen" and the scorer thought they heard "thirty", "forty", or "fifty". Saying the numbers specifically: "one three" can alleviate that confusion.

Seems as though both ways of reporting to the scorer has its pros & cons :confused:

Saying "1-3" for #13 may result in the scorer hearing & recording "1" or "3"...

Saying "thirteen" for #13 may result in the scorer hearing & recording "thirty"...

So what is the preferred method FED/NCAA?

More importantly for me, what's the preferred method for CHSAA?

I don't know that there is a preferred method, but as long as you go to the proper reporting area, stop, speak clearly and slow down your hand motions when reporting, then you should rarely have any problems with communication.

Well that sir depends on who you are, how long you've been calling, what level you have reached & of course who's clique you're in.

I've seen it all, including the two hand college technique. :rolleyes:

I say whole numbers (thirteen/fourteen/twelve). That's how I was taught and is what I prefer. Only time I've had problems with the table not understanding me is when the table is not paying attention.

If I'm in a quiet venue my voice is easily heard. If it's extraordinarily loud then I make sure i'm in a spot where they can see my signals clearly and read my lips if they have to.

I have never had a problem by saying "1, 3" or "1, 4." The only problem I have ever had was the scorer got the colors wrong when I had two 45s guarding each other and the scorer had one of them foul out improperly. But I have never had a problem with the scorers ever figuring out what that meant or never assumed that "1, 3" mean "4" or some other number. ;)

BTW, the NF or the NCAA has never addressed this in their literature as far as I know. It seems like they both leave this up to supervisors and clinics to teach the way it should be.

Peace

I was always taught to use one-handed reporting in HS, while stating the individual digits as they're shown (one, three; not thirteen).

In NCAA-W we use two-handed reporting, and we have been told to say the number (thirteen, forty-two), since we are showing both digits at the same time.

I guess, as always, your mileage may vary based on the preferences of the powers-that-be in your area. For some, this is a big deal. For others, they may not care about how you report the number to the table, but they will make a big deal about exactly where you stand during a FT.

Either way, be careful which finger you use when signaling a one.

IAABO Only ...
 

IAABO Handbook (page 55)
Foul Procedures
B. Reporting the foul
6. State the color of the jersey and the number of the player who fouled. Simultaneously, using one hand only, signal to indicate the number of the player who fouled.

Since I'm using one hand to show each individual digit of the player's number, I simultaneously state each individual digit of that number. That's the way we've been taught here in Connecticut, even when we were using NFHS mechanics, back in the good old days. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

What do NFHS mechanics say?

This doesn't really help, Billy, because as I mentioned earlier (and was pointed out by Bktballref), the player's number is NOT 1-3. The player's number is 13. The mechanic is NOT to state the number that you are currently holding up on one hand. You're supposed to state the player's number, that is, "thirteen".

Bad, Bad Connecticut
 

I agree. But, this is what we're taught here in Connecticut, and it's easier, in my opinion, to say each digit as you show each digit.

That's fine. But you tried to support it by quoting the mechanic manual, and I just wanted to point out that the manual doesn't really support it.

Actually he quoted the "IAABO Handbook" :rolleyes:




I am a "twenty-four" kind of guy. I'm just waiting for NFHS to go to TWO HANDED REPORTING. It would make things so much easier. JMO.

I somehow got roped into being the official scorer for a few high school games this past season.
I worked games with a variety of crews, and had referees who gave the number each way.

From my end, it was easier for me when the official would give the hand signal and say the number as in "Blue - 1 -4", rather than "Blue-14". It just seemed to keep me in rhythm better, but I have no idea why.

But hey, I am a coach, and we are confused easily (often by bright, shiny objects).

I'm a single-digit-at-a-time guy, no one has ever said one thing or another about it.

My preference is that you report the number..

When the announcer announces the number does he announce the player as number 1-3 or number thirteen?

I like speaking english and reporting the numer and not individual numbers.

I report numbers and have only had problems with one scorekeeper, of course so did my partner...

I am assuming you mean number. :D

Also how the announcer reports the number is not the issue here. We report to the table so they do not mess up what is reported or they understand what is reported. What the announcer says in the microphone is another issue as well. I am sure how well you are understood is the way you annunciate your words and your speech type. I just think when most people hear only apart of what you say and you have words that are similar in nature (like the "teen" words) people might get confused.

I am in IAABOland and we've been instructed to say the actual number. If there is a loud gym and you say "One-Four", there is a chance that only the "Four" will be heard and a mistake might occur in the scorebook. If you say "fourteen", it diminishes the likelihood of that occurrence.

Two years ago at a camp, a guest speaker (a D1 official) suggested in his presentation the use of saying the whole number instead of the individual digits. I liked his reasoning behind the mechanic so I switched from the latter to the former prior to the start of the next season. However, it took some practice in front of the mirror because the timing with one syllable numbers as opposed to two syllable digits. It felt awkward for a time, but now it's part of my foul reporting mechanic. I never had any one tell me that it had to be done one way or the other.

For what it is worth, in Texas, we are taught to verbally report, color, number (whole) and signal with one hand each digit, followed by the appropriate infraction signal. Since I have also kept score, I prefer to hear the "whole" number rather than digits and then I confirm what I hear with the digits signal. When I hear "1 - 3" instead of "13", my brain thinks 1 - 3, not 13. To me it simplifies it to hear the whole number and see digits. Just my 2 cents.

Report The Number
 

If you are to say the number our loud, then I can see the schools going with numbered uniforms like 16,17,18, and so forth. Since the hand signals are not that important. If this is the case then more schools could retire more jersey numbers.

I'm a whole number guy. Reporting is about communication and which communicates more easily, "one three" or "thirteen"? We all know thirteen, but "one three" takes just a little bit of mapping from what was said into a "real" number. I also think in a noisy gym, where they may not clearly hear all of what I say, "thirteen" is more likely to be recognized correctly than it's two digit alternative.

The hard part is disconnecting the signaling from the saying. I'll usually show the first digit as I'm saying the number, then after a suitable length of time has passed, I'll signal the second digit. But when I watch newbies try it, the fingers are inevitably connected to the syllables.

Just my $0.02

Which is different from Chuck, who's just a fraction.

I need more tissues to wipe the Diet Pepsi off the screen.

I can't wait to see if he's gonna waste a "STFU" on you.

Good point, IMO! As a newbie to whole number reporting, your point is spot on as to what I went through while switching my mechanic. My next learning objective is getting to the point where my fingers aren't tied to the syllables. I envision even more mirror time. Do you have any learning tips to pass along?

He's not allowed outside of the annual baseball thread so I think I'm safe if I avoid that for a few days. The way the home team's been playing I was going to do that anyway, so no biggie :shrug:

Is there a restraining order or something?

Mirror time, mirror time, and more mirror time. Every time I use the restroom I call a foul on the guy in the mirror. I've found it useful to run through all the possible uni numbers, checking how they look and working on the timing. It's all about muscle memory, after all.

Also, if you have room by the mirror, practice doing your preliminary, taking a couple of steps to the "reporting area" then stopping and doing your table thing. This has helped me make moving, coming to a complete stop, and reporting more automatic.

You may also want to check yourself by closing your eyes and practicing individual mechanics aspect (fist up straight, traveling signal, etc.), then open your eyes and see if you really look like how you envision yourself looking. That's useful for making you more aware of how it feels to do it properly. 'Cuz at game time we have to do it entirely by feel.

Ray, this is definitely MITIN.

More Information Than I Need

He Has A Wide Stance ...
 

Did you ever call a foul on Senator Larry Craig?

Thanks for the advice. I did try using all the number combinations, and I'll return to that while working on my timing as I incorporate some movement into my practice.
A side note to my mirror time practice is that my dogs don't like my practice to include the use of a whistle. Evidently the Fox 40 really bothers them.

I wouldn't actually blow the whistle in a small room, anyway. Not good for the ears. Just say "Tweet" or something similar to simulate the whistle, and then make the appropriate signals in the mirror. It really helps a lot.

Yes, I learned that from the dogs, and that is what I have been doing. They and my ears appreciate the lack of noise.

Or if you're really feeling sadistic, you can use a dog whistle for your practice. ;)

I've always been a "one, three" kinda guy, but think I might like the whole number option better. So as I've been reading this thread this morning, I've been trying it. Seems to me saying "White thirteen" followed by signaling 1-3 would be a good method. It separates the one part verbal communication from the visual hand communication. It also seems to alleviate a lot of the concerns here - you say "Thirteen", and if there is any confusion at all on the scorer's part, he can then confirm with your hand signals. If you're signaling and saying "thirteen" at the same time, I could see a challenge in processing both seemingly different signals.

Then again, maybe we're all just over-thinking this. :D

I agree. :cool:

It's very simple:
1) Do it the way the person who is paying/evaluating you says to do it...

if they don't care then...

2) You do what works for best for you.

I do it that way already. :D

Peace

When In Rome ...
 

Well put. Simple, and to the point.

And if the person you are working for doesn't have a preference?

Since 13 is the number that seems to be mentioned quite a bit, think about it. Yes, someone can speak in such a manner that thirteen and thirty could be confusing, but I've never had this experience. However, "one" and "three" will always be "one" and "three" no matter what.
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the speed of the signal. I can indicate 13 before I get done saying it so the scorekeeper will see the whole thing before assuming my "thirteen" is "thirty." Obviously I'm a whole number type of person because I don't really see why I'm going to report a basketball foul differently from every other time I would use the number 13 or any other double-digit number.

JMHO using my version of common sense.